"This church is my home!" (unmarked spoilers)

Heather finds out why it's true that you shouldn't talk to strangers. Or look in mirrors, quite honestly.

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Sionnan
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"This church is my home!" (unmarked spoilers)

Post by Sionnan »

Now bear with me here, because I might explain this a little shakily.

I believe Vincent took his faith very seriously, that he made his religion his life. He just didn't attach his emotional baggage to his cause the way Claudia did.

In the conversation between he and Claudia in the chapel, when he finally gets frustrated enough with Claudia's hypocrisy to burst out with, "Who are you to claim to know God's will," to have Claudia, lost for words, respond with, "Go home, Vincent!"

And then what I find curious is what he said next. "Home? This church is my home!"

This is why I believe Vincent's motivation is sincere. It's not that he has a grudge about the way Claudia worships, although he doesn't like it. It's not that the birth of God would deteriorate his method of living comfortably (though that was probably an annoying aspect of it, too).

It's that he's actually attached to the church. Vincent is the type of person to back away from something if he had the chance. He's not the type to really go out of his way to prove someone wrong if the experience would inconvenience him enough. He has his own motives and agendas, and although they aren't always apparent, he's not willing to waste too much of his energy going out of his way to be a nuisance for the sake of it.

It may seem that that's his prime motive- to be a thorn in Claudia's side. He doesn't agree with her, and he thinks God being born is a bad idea. Most people say that his motivation is money; that because God being born would mess with his financial situation.

But think of it- does it really seem like Vincent is the type of person to fight that hard for something he could obtain just as easily in another way if he just left? Really, think of it. Vincent could just leave, right there, walk out of Silent Hill and ignore Claudia's crazy rantings, and go someplace where he could make just as much money.

The thing is, he has emotional investment in the church. It's his baby. Although he doesn't go all "spiritual aesthete" the same way Claudia does, what he invested into the church really meant something to him.

In fact, I'd wager it's the most important thing in his life. More important than his own life, considering Claudia knifed him for it. And it was apparent she would do it, too. Vincent's not stupid- he knew that Claudia was getting dangerous, though he couldn't predict how dangerous. He must have known there was some amount of danger in the whole situation.

So I'd say that although he's materialistic, snide, and more than a little off, Vincent is sincere about his loyalty and love to his faith and church. He just expresses them in rather unorthodox ways.

We're more familiar and comfortable with the image of the crazy aesthete than we are with the materialistic spiritual leader. Physically seeing the church grow and prosper must have given him a sense of pride and pleasure.

He's the type that internalizes his own faith, and it becomes an intellectual pursuit rather than a matter of blind acceptance. To me, that would be why it seems that he seems to be less devout than Claudia- he just doesn't profess his own beliefs as openly as her, until the end.

And by that point, I think we're too embroiled with everything else that's happening around them, and what has happened, to catch that thing that Vincent just said.

So rather than being a leech who found it advantageous to be a priest because it gave him a cushy life, I think that Vincent wanted to do what he was doing for the fact he really did love his faith.
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Post by Mis Krist. »

I actually thought about that same line today!

I never doubted that Vincent's faith was sincere, that he truly believed in God--"I fear Her and I adore Her,"--but that most of this dealings within the church itself was for profit. Not only financial profit but whatever profit he could gain from being in such a high-ranking spot and capitalizing on the "lower followers." He seems to enjoy making it known to Heather how much he knows about her that she doesn't: in two of the three times they meet it's evident he likes lording things over her. I can't imagine he'd act differently towards anyone else, and this type of behavior frightens me a little if he's a man of faith.

And yet on the audio tape of him and another follower speaking to each other about Claudia, he doesn't appear to be trying to 'lord' anything over her. He speaks civilly, from one follower to another, and only temporarily busts out the charm at the end when he asks her to keep this chat between the two of them. So it's highly probable he only 'lorded' things over Heather because of who she was and her role in all this. It probably gave him some degree of comfort, being able to take cheap shots at the girl who was a vessel for God so he wouldn't feel so powerless.

His interactions with Claudia clearly speak of a personal background and this almost.. vendetta type of feeling. It's almost like they grew up together but they'll be damned if they get along. Vincent even gets really.. bitter and angry when Heather tries to just lump he and Claudia together on the 'same side.' He clearly wants to distinguish that just because they share faiths that doesn't mean they share a psychosis. Not that Vincent is well put together or anything, but he's definitely not off the deep end enough to try and bring down God.

Considering how the cult was marked for its elitist feeling of being the chosen followers of God (Schreiber's Hope House article in SH3) I think Vincent is probably the most forward-thinking of the Order members, or at least progressive. He isn't trying to usher in Paradise and he even mocks the idea that Leonard's death makes him "God's beloved." Had he been allowed to live I'd probably credit Vincent with "normal-izing" some parts of the Order's beliefs.

However, Vincent himself makes some statements that I think are worth noting. "I know about the pleasures of this world," and when talking about God's birth, "It wouldn't be convenient--much too... unpredictable." Not that with the first quote he automatically means money and profit, but that he really knows what its like to live and to enjoy the world around him, not the world as God would make it. Which makes me wonder why he tells Heather to "enjoy" herself while in the Other Side...

The quote is as heartfelt as I think Vincent will ever get. The "unpredictable" line makes me pause.. It's like he's a man who enjoys the order and mundane, the routine of this world, not the unknown of God's. Personally I think he's petrified of Paradise and wanted to stop bringing it down at all costs, but I don't think he's above using Heather to meet that end--understandably, considering he hasn't got any ~*special powers*~.

I know this was a really long response but.. basically I agree with you that Vincent really did have a stable faith, but he certainly seems to have more in mind besides it.
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Post by Sionnan »

Yay, I made sense, then! I was so worried I just rambled on and on and never got my point across.

I love your way of explaining Vincent- yes, he absolutely seems like he enjoys the religion for the stability and comfort it brings. It's something he can view, touch, and physically affect, with the way he does it. It's safe, and your speculation that he would be petrified of the unknown form of "Paradise" is exactly indicative of that.

I think that the material comfort aspect wasn't just because he was a glutton or greedy, but because that's how he could be most satisfied in his life. Like I said before, he can see his progress. He can take pride in what he's done, because he can see it.

Granted, I'm not saying he skimmed a little off the top to make himself a little more comfortable, but I winder if he took that instead of a salary. Because their religion isn't an official religion, there's no bigger organization to hand out funds to different churches or clerical members of the church. The worshipers might have been more used to the high priests and what not being very spare with their spendings, even on the church itself. That's where the spiritual aesthete comes in- Dahlia, Claudia, Leonard (he was a huge power figure in the church, right?), the whole wish House orphanage. They all seemed to live by the humble-the-parishioners policy, and to make them live in little to no comfort so that their version of the doctrine could be enforced according to how they viewed it. Which was to achieve Paradise through suffering.

Not to say they were hypocrites. Most of the high power figures lived humbly in accordance with their own doctrine, especially Claudia.

So with Vincent doing everything he could to provide physical amenities, it might have been a shock to the worshipers that he would take such a radical new shape. They recognized that he was doing a world of good for the tottering church, but they also saw he wasn't being totally altruistic. They saw him take stuff so he could live as comfortably as he made the church, which is a little different than embellishing your worshiping place.

So I doubt it was Vincent being underhanded in his dealings with the church, it was just his way of going about the faith business. There's no fixed regulations saying that all the priests and priestesses have to live in poverty, but that previous majority of them did. So when Vincent said, "I think that's pointless," and changed it so it would suit his own way so that he could see the progress, people were a little taken aback.

I like your interpretation of Vincent taking potshots at Heather. I never got the impression of true malice, just that he was needling her for the heck of it, and the chance that he was doing it so that he's more on equal footing with her is completely believable.

Yeah, I used the quote for that exact reason. It was a very tense situation, and it was a place where he didn't have the luxury to check himself before he said stuff. (Calling a less-than-stable priestess "bitch" comes to mind for not checking himself. XD)

I also agree with your idea that Vincent and Claudia have known each other for a long time, what with the whole, "I saw how your father hit you; kicked you; made you cry. The image of his cruelty is forver burned into my mind." It's pretty indicative of their prolonged acquaintance. I'm pretty certain they'd have these spats of theological matters every couple of days. XD
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Post by Mis Krist. »

Heh, I'd love to see those kids in the awkward years of adolescence.

I don't know if Leonard's position in the cult was high-standing. I got the impression he THOUGHT he was more important than he really was--believing he was a "knight of honor, a protector of the seal" and all that. I don't think he was unimportant, though: that just he was a loud-mouthed individual and made himself pretty vulnerable to scorn by rejecting Claudia's--and by extension, Dahlia's--way of bringing down God. What he says does seem to have some sway though, as Vincent seems convinced the Seal of Metatron should do some good to help Heather.

And the idea of a humble living religious figure seems ingrained into a more popular, real life religion as well. Claudia seems to project the austere lifestyle we've come to understand about priests and nuns, while Vincent looks like a cushy banker.
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Post by MisterGrey »

I get the impression that Vincent believed in the IDEA of the Order--but not the things that actually came with it. He liked the order, the comfort it brought, in the day to day activities--but as soon as it went from a structured religion to becoming a faith, he stopped going along for the ride. A kind of, "This just got way too real for me" sort of attitude. He needed the principals of his faith to remain abstract, and just that--faith.
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Post by alone in the town »

To me it seemed as though every time Vincent openly referred to anything regarding his religion, he sounded like a used-car salesman. Also, his behavior seems to correlate with that assessment. Even other members of the Order felt that Father Vincent used his faith to advance his financial standing.

And that's basically how I viewed him. He's a religious huckster essentially, not much different from the baptist televangelists save for his seeming avoidance of the spotlight. I don't think he's completely cynical about his religion, as there are aspects about both his beliefs and the Otherside that clearly interest him in an academic sense, but I think that academy and money is far more important to him than actual honest faith.
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Post by Sionnan »

I get the impression that Vincent believed in the IDEA of the Order--but not the things that actually came with it. He liked the order, the comfort it brought, in the day to day activities--but as soon as it went from a structured religion to becoming a faith, he stopped going along for the ride. A kind of, "This just got way too real for me" sort of attitude. He needed the principals of his faith to remain abstract, and just that--faith.

That's just a difference between doctrine. What things are you talking about? Do you mean the rituals that actually brought about demons/gods and the like?

You're confusing me with the whole "structure religion" idea of the order, as opposed to it being a faith. The way I saw it, it was never really structured. People flocked to certain clerical members because they agreed on their method of getting to God, as well as flocking to some worshipers who had a lot of zeal. That's why I see that it never really had a structure, and than Vincent just carved some of his own out of the very malleable form of the religion.

They all shared the same faith. And if Vincent didn't have it, like I said in my previous posts, then I believe he wouldn't have been motivated to half the stuff he did, including die.

Yeah, Vincent's pretty flaky- the type of person to walk away from something if he wasn't being serious about it. So the reason alone why he stayed makes me believe he was being very sincere.

AITT- I explained previously why I thought the members of the Order thought it was strange for him to be doing that. But I don't think it wasn't allowed- I just think that it was his way of doing it, and it went against a lot of the other saintly figures in the cult.

Again- you stress his insincerity and flakiness as a character. We all know the line, "I hate to get all sweaty and dirty." Double entendres aside, Vincent freely admits to not doing something if it's too much hassle.

So the reason why he went that far with the church, giving it that much growth and prosperity, and going so far as to risk his own life (and lose it), tells me that he's drop dead serious about it. No pun intended.

Think of it. WHY would anyone choose to make their cushy job a clerical one? That's a hell of a lot of work. It's not that he acres about holding up his image- he obviously doesn't care when the common worshiper knows about him skimming off the top of the profits. I mean, he could have gotten into the lucrative occupation of selling White Claudia to the hundreds of people who were hooked on the stuff, instead. He could have been ANY of a number of things.

But clerical member? With Vincent's character, if he didn't think it was worth it in some way, he wouldn't have done it. And I don't think the financial benefit was enough to make him consider it that. In fact, he probably had to figure out how to live comfortably in the church, he had to set set up his own way. There was no precedent. He had to figure out how it could work before he could do it.

He even said that he had to sacrifice a LOT of money to make the church what we see in the game, aside for Claudia's decor.
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Post by Mis Krist. »

>We all know the line, "I hate to get all sweaty and dirty."

"I always hated getting all.. hot and sweaty." That in and of itself is hot. 'Specially since we can't see his face, only Heather's reaction of ORLY? Personally I'd like to think the scene 'jumps' ahead about a half hour. I saw a porno like that once.

>They all shared the same faith. And if Vincent didn't have it, like I said in my previous posts, then I believe he wouldn't have been motivated to half the stuff he did, including die.

You know I think it all boils down to this--if all he wanted to do was to dick over Claudia's plans, that's going REALLY far for that notion. I think towards the end or.. maybe once he noticed how far Heather was willing to go he really cemented the idea of stopping Claudia for reasons besides, "It'd be funny to piss her off," or "That Paradise shit would ruin my day."

I don't think, however, he was willing to die or risk death at all for his faith. I don't think he anticipated Claudia attacking him--sure, he says, "Or you'll kill me?" quietly and whatnot but I don't think he actually BELIEVED she'd go through with it in his case. Either way, he doesn't go into that chapel to face off with Claudia to try and wrestle for the fate of the world, he tries to talk her out of it and argues with her continuously--then tells Heather to do it. Not really risking death there, I don't think.. Or maybe I'm trivializing his "stand off"?

He'd have to have the brain power of Terri Schiavo not to realize that Claudia's dangerous, so I'm pretty sure he knew she posed a threat, but... I don't know, his stand off with her at the end seems lacking of heroism to me.

PS: Figured I'd add as many lines as I could regarding Vincent's faith, from his own mouth.
Vincent, in the Chapel wrote:"But I do believe in Her. In my own way. I fear Her and I adore Her, but I haven’t lost my mind like you."
Vincent & Claudia, in.... motel room wrote:Vincent: You think that God is going to save you? Ha!
Claudia: What do you know anyway!?
Vincent: I know about the pleasures of this world and I want to find my happiness while I’m still here.

(And later)

Vincent: What you call “faith” is nothing more than a child crying out for love.
Vincent & Heather in Church Library wrote: Vincent: It’s not uncommon for people to worship the same god and still disagree.
Heather: “God”? Are you sure you don’t mean “Devil”?
Vincent: Whichever you like.
Vincent & unknown lady wrote:Vincent: Maybe it’s because of her great faith. But I could never be like her. I wouldn’t want to.
Woman: Nor I. The truth is, Sister Claudia frightens me a little.
Vincent: Well now, let’s both show our faith by forgetting about this little talk, okay?

Reading all these, with the tone and inflection of his voice in mind, I don't see it as being insincere or sneaky--at least, not some of the lines. In particular his "Whichever you like" strikes me as pretty indicative that he's not at all rigid about the form God takes or what you want to call it. God is god and that's... about it for him. He openly admits to not wanting to be like Claudia, and gets frustrated/offended when Heather lumps the two of them together. Truthfully there's a distinct difference between the two of them and their ways of practicing their faith.

His take on Claudia's definition of "faith" really makes me wonder what he would call it...
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Post by The Adversary »

>I believe he wouldn't have been motivated to half the stuff he did, including die.
Vincent didn't plan on dying: Claudia stabbed him in the back. Literally.
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Post by Sionnan »

Yeah, both you and Krist. have that one true. I can't be certain or not whether he'd risk himself, given he had knowledge of the opportunity. Considering how far he'd gone already... well, you can't say for sure he wouldn't. At least I wouldn't say, that given the choice, he wouldn't let himself die for it.

But I think that he thought he knew Claudia too well, and either thought she was too timid, and/or stable, and/or knew him too well, or thought she was going to off herself instead of him.

I wouldn't doubt that he knew of the ritual to summon God. Hence the testy, "Then why don't you go to hell?" He probably just didn't think she was more homicidal than suicidal.

That's just my spin on it.

Anyways, thank you, Krist, for quote-hunting. Great job.
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Post by The Adversary »

I'm positive he wouldn't die for god's birth. He kept himself holed up so he'd be safe, and everything he says to Heather is to ensure that she, or anything else, won't hurt him. He lies at every opportunity, and does so for his safety.

No, he'd never die for any "cause."
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Post by Sionnan »

Mmmm. You know, that's probably true.

It makes me wonder if it's survival instinct, or just being self-centered.

But no, I don't believe he'd want to die for God's birth. In any way, shape, or form. Since, after all, that's the antithesis to what he was working toward. I didn't mean to suggest he would. Rather, maybe if it was up to him, and he needed to die for whatever reason to ensure his own cause (i.e. prevent the birth of God), he might.

Then again, he's just as likely to flee and try to deal with the after effects as best he can afterwards.

It's hard to say with him. It's that Moon card, I'm sure of it. Unpredictability. :D
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Post by Son_of_Kauffman »

It is plain survival. No one but the most fanatic and insane person would die for God.
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Post by Sionnan »

XD

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Post by Disciple of Claudia »

I confused on why a thread has been on the most corrupted member of the Order and trying to say that he was moved by Heather's actions. Vincent had no chance in hell in defeating Mother Claudia. "This is my home" was a cry of desperation nothing more. Besides Heather actions were motivated by revenge and to commit murder.
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Post by Sionnan »

No, I didn't mean to imply that he felt ennobled by Heather's efforts, nor did he think that he had a snowball's chance in hell of bringing down Claudia.

He says it himself, "You're the only one who can stop her. I don't have powers like you two."

But he's absolutely not the most corrupted member. Think about Tony Archibolt, who sleeps with underaged girls, traffics marijuana, and embezzles money from the order.

Whereas Vincent extorts money to make the Order greater, and skims a little off the top so he can live comfortably. *shrug*

Yeah, it was a cry of desperation. Which meant it was sincere. He literally felt that the church and the Order was his home.

I have no idea why you brought up Heather's motivations and actions. I mentioned nothing about her, or I didn't wittingly. o_O

EDIT- Now that I think about it, it might sound like Vincent still might be as bad as Archibolt re the money thing. Think of it this way- Archibolt embezzled enough money to buy a vacation to Mexico. Vincent, on the other hand, has some snazzy clothes. Not even comparable.
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Post by Mis Krist. »

>trying to say that he was moved by Heather's actions

I suggested that in passing.
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Post by Burning Man »

Firstly, very nice interpretation, Sionnan.

I would like to mention, however, that you might be taking Vincent's comment a little too literally. There's a difference between saying the church is his home and saying that the church is his. One is about 'attachment,' but the other is about 'possession.'

Vincent's statement about the church being his home is exclusive to the English script. I am guessing that it was translated that way because Claudia tells him to "go home," previously.

In comparison, the "go home" part of the dialog in Japanese simply says "go back" or "return [to]," and it may be that Claudia is telling Vincent to return to reality, where he is better off with his earthly possessions. Vincent sounds like he takes offense to that simply because he believes this church is his as well, and that Claudia has no authority to tell him to leave.

In my opinion, it seems a little out of place of Vincent's character to have a homely attachment to something.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Or he could be a literal bum that sleeps in churches.
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Post by Sionnan »

Wow, thanks! I'm really flattered, Burning Man.

What I find weird about Claudia ordering him out, using either "go back" or "return" is it's suggesting that Vincent can willingly travel back and forth between the Otherworld and the real world. In fact, it doesn't make any sense at all, because he seems to be caught up in the changing world without his volition. If he actually had the power to "go back", I think he would have, as well as finding a way to keep the world in reality.

Also, it's a little weird for Claudia to be still speaking so deeply. I like the "go home" better, because it's showing that she's getting flustered with Vincent verbally barraging her. It's in her character to resort to things like that when she feels that she's losing control of the situation. You know, like the stock phrase, "You'll go to Hell!""

>In my opinion, it seems a little out of place of Vincent's character to have a homely attachment to something.

Do you mean making something his home, or just taking it seriously in general? If you meant the former, then I'll have to cite all those faith-based comments he makes all throughout the game, where he didn't even have to justify himself. Example- Heather in the library haranguing him about being crazy, and he went out of his way to try to put her straight. He didn't have to, really- she would have gone along with her thing with or without thinking Vincent was crazy. And again, Vincent, if he really didn't care himself, wouldn't have gone out of his way to justify it to someone else. Think of the money situation- he knew the worshipers knew he was skimming off the top of the profits, but he didn't really care enough about it damaging his image to try to justify his actions.

As for the former- he's notoriously materialistic. I think he'd like a little something to be able to root to.
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