OK, I'm not going to get into this to the extent that I did before, but there have been alternate explanations to everything provided as proof of the window theory. The problem is that people seem determined to acknowledge the window theory and no others. What seems "quite clear and plausible" to one person may seem entirely ludicrous to another (e.g., me). It may be that the squares are intended to be windows, but I've seen nothing indisputable that supports that idea. Since the thought of including the player takes me out of the story of the game, it's not a theory I find viable.
One thing that needs to be noted: James says, "Looking at this makes me feel like someone's groping around inside my skull...." That's quite different from saying, "Someone's groping around in my head." After a night of drinking, I can say, "I feel like someone hit me upside the head with a sledgehammer." Obviously, that doesn't make it so.
Meaning behind Save system?
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the man in the planet
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and like i said before, that "someone" could be the memory of mary. he doesn't know who is doing the groping. i likened it to when you smell something that triggers a random memory and for some reason think of a person. the more you dwell on it, you finally realise that the smell (we'll say of a perfume) reminds you of an ex-girlfriend. the memory of that person was digging around, trying to get to the surface. for james, it could be mary. that red square (which appears all over the town) might be raising up memories of when he and mary visited there and that's triggering the memory of what he had done, since he is repressing it for the time being. i think that's as plausible as it being the player somehow getting into james' head through an interdimensional window that's floating in a well. this memory connection serves for when he continually "saves" his progress. he uses the red squares as memory triggers, so when he dies, he goes back to the last place he remembers. and as for the 9 save points, i never saw it as a window pane, i saw it as "aw hell, something big is gonna happen and i better save, see how many places i have to save. something's gonna happen and i am glad i didn't miss this opportunity to save/remember where i am.
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Glazarus
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Hmm... as I said before, you don't provide an explaination to these things in your theories, if you got a better then the window theory, bring it forward and explain these things:
* The formation of the squares in the end.
* The things James say.
* The reason we look directly at them (instead of as it is in the fourth and first game)
You must explain all of these, because they are ALL IN THE GAME.
So, if you have a better theory, you MUST have a plausible explaination for all these. If not, do not counter the window theory!
Non of you have explained THESE things, or you dismiss them as unimportant, just because they don't support your theory. These things matter and I like to hear a good explaination! If not, stop bitching about a theory that has been carefully developed.
* The formation of the squares in the end.
* The things James say.
* The reason we look directly at them (instead of as it is in the fourth and first game)
You must explain all of these, because they are ALL IN THE GAME.
So, if you have a better theory, you MUST have a plausible explaination for all these. If not, do not counter the window theory!
Non of you have explained THESE things, or you dismiss them as unimportant, just because they don't support your theory. These things matter and I like to hear a good explaination! If not, stop bitching about a theory that has been carefully developed.
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the man in the planet
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* The formation of the squares in the end.
it can be as practical as the developers not wanting us to miss them. or to say all this time i've been trying to remember something. now, with all these memory triggers, i have no choice (this is right before james gives up his delusions) or now that he has remembered, all of the triggers are there for him as if saying, "you remember now, right?" all of his memories are right there in his face and what he's done is no longer memory. the "device" is now less a device and more conscious to him. as i've said before. It's also been suggested that the 9 save points are reference to Yggdrasil and other theories that play off the number nine. also, as i've said before.
* The things James say.
he only says ONE thing. all he says is "it feels like someone is groping around in my head." i already addressed that in it's the memory of mary that makes him feel like someone is groping in his head. as i've said before. or it could be that he, himself, is groping around in there, the part of him that knows what he's done, a subconsious part of him that's trying to come up to the surface to face and be punished for what he's done.
* The reason we look directly at them (instead of as it is in the fourth and first game)
you look at heather as well. if it were a window, wouldn't she only be visible through the seal, and not her full face? if nothing else, why can't it be james looking at his own reflection in the tile? i'm still saying it's a design choice by the developers to show that we are saving james' progress. as i've said before, it is a static picture of james, not a live, moving image of him, as would be seen through a window. it's weak assumption that it is a window since we see his face there. especially since if we saw him from the save point in the well, we'd be looking up at him, not straight on, unless he's bent down to stick his face right in front of the save point, likewise at the first save point in the hospital which is on a desk and the one on the tray in the apartments (there may be more). so while it's a cop out to say it's just a design choice on my part, it's also difficult to say it's a window, since we would see him from the perspective of the "window" whhich we don't. And why don't we see him divided in 9's at the 9 save points? want me to put it in terms of my theory? he's looking at the reflective red tile and remembering what has happened. just like he looked at himself in the mirror at the very beginning. while it's not a mirror per se, it is reflective to a degree since the flashlight reflects on it from certain angles. this brings up the whole "reflection theory" with the mirror at the beginning, the mirror in angela's room, the covered mirror in the hotel, etc.
"When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." he's looking at himself, unconciously groping around in his memories, remembering what he's done.
it can be as practical as the developers not wanting us to miss them. or to say all this time i've been trying to remember something. now, with all these memory triggers, i have no choice (this is right before james gives up his delusions) or now that he has remembered, all of the triggers are there for him as if saying, "you remember now, right?" all of his memories are right there in his face and what he's done is no longer memory. the "device" is now less a device and more conscious to him. as i've said before. It's also been suggested that the 9 save points are reference to Yggdrasil and other theories that play off the number nine. also, as i've said before.
* The things James say.
he only says ONE thing. all he says is "it feels like someone is groping around in my head." i already addressed that in it's the memory of mary that makes him feel like someone is groping in his head. as i've said before. or it could be that he, himself, is groping around in there, the part of him that knows what he's done, a subconsious part of him that's trying to come up to the surface to face and be punished for what he's done.
* The reason we look directly at them (instead of as it is in the fourth and first game)
you look at heather as well. if it were a window, wouldn't she only be visible through the seal, and not her full face? if nothing else, why can't it be james looking at his own reflection in the tile? i'm still saying it's a design choice by the developers to show that we are saving james' progress. as i've said before, it is a static picture of james, not a live, moving image of him, as would be seen through a window. it's weak assumption that it is a window since we see his face there. especially since if we saw him from the save point in the well, we'd be looking up at him, not straight on, unless he's bent down to stick his face right in front of the save point, likewise at the first save point in the hospital which is on a desk and the one on the tray in the apartments (there may be more). so while it's a cop out to say it's just a design choice on my part, it's also difficult to say it's a window, since we would see him from the perspective of the "window" whhich we don't. And why don't we see him divided in 9's at the 9 save points? want me to put it in terms of my theory? he's looking at the reflective red tile and remembering what has happened. just like he looked at himself in the mirror at the very beginning. while it's not a mirror per se, it is reflective to a degree since the flashlight reflects on it from certain angles. this brings up the whole "reflection theory" with the mirror at the beginning, the mirror in angela's room, the covered mirror in the hotel, etc.
"When you look into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." he's looking at himself, unconciously groping around in his memories, remembering what he's done.
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Doorstop_Idol
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Ok, reading through this thing makes me feel like someone is groping around inside my skull...with an ice pick. Seriously, this "discussion" has gone back and forth between predominately two theories for quite some time and neither side is going to budge on this.
You know what the save points look like to me? Little red squares. And not just any color red, no...these are bright red, to be sure to draw the player's attention so we know where the save points are. That way we won't be completely screwed when we fuck up and die. That's it, they are save points. Games need them, so they have to be there somewhere.
Seriously, both theories have their positive and negative points, and their own supporters. Though the argument that has been used against the Window theory that says its impossible because it breaks the fourth wall is null if you ask me. I don't know about everyone else, but when I play a video game I always tend to remember that I am playing a game. I never talk to my friends in passing about the time that I, as James Sunderland, actually went to Silent Hill to look for my dead wife. It is a game...a really deep, complex, and well made game...but still a game none the less.
Who cares if we know its a game? If it feels like we are controlling James on his quest, guess what? Its because we are!
Holy shit!
But don't think, however, that because I take issue with that particular argument that I choose to side with the Window theory. As I said, both theories are plausible...since no one who worked on the game has ever conclusively said one way or the other.
Though I do believe that at least half of the people who support the Window theory just do so because St. Thomas believes it to be true...and that is the closest they can get to fellating him via the internet. Vehemently supporting everything he says seems like a popular pass time around here. Granted he knows his shit about SH, you cannot deny that...but there is always a chance he could be wrong.
(And St. Thomas, this is nothing against you. Its just that when half the opinions on this site get shot down or supported with a statement akin to "St. Thomas says so...so it must be true, you n00b." it can get a little annoying to everyone who isn't you.
)
You know what the save points look like to me? Little red squares. And not just any color red, no...these are bright red, to be sure to draw the player's attention so we know where the save points are. That way we won't be completely screwed when we fuck up and die. That's it, they are save points. Games need them, so they have to be there somewhere.
Seriously, both theories have their positive and negative points, and their own supporters. Though the argument that has been used against the Window theory that says its impossible because it breaks the fourth wall is null if you ask me. I don't know about everyone else, but when I play a video game I always tend to remember that I am playing a game. I never talk to my friends in passing about the time that I, as James Sunderland, actually went to Silent Hill to look for my dead wife. It is a game...a really deep, complex, and well made game...but still a game none the less.
Who cares if we know its a game? If it feels like we are controlling James on his quest, guess what? Its because we are!
Holy shit!But don't think, however, that because I take issue with that particular argument that I choose to side with the Window theory. As I said, both theories are plausible...since no one who worked on the game has ever conclusively said one way or the other.
Though I do believe that at least half of the people who support the Window theory just do so because St. Thomas believes it to be true...and that is the closest they can get to fellating him via the internet. Vehemently supporting everything he says seems like a popular pass time around here. Granted he knows his shit about SH, you cannot deny that...but there is always a chance he could be wrong.
(And St. Thomas, this is nothing against you. Its just that when half the opinions on this site get shot down or supported with a statement akin to "St. Thomas says so...so it must be true, you n00b." it can get a little annoying to everyone who isn't you.
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December Man
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You basically wrapped it all up in a few sentences. Yes, St. Thomas has godlike knowledge about SH, but he isn't God. He can't be right all the time people...Doorstop_Idol wrote:Though I do believe that at least half of the people who support the Window theory just do so because St. Thomas believes it to be true...and that is the closest they can get to fellating him via the internet. Vehemently supporting everything he says seems like a popular pass time around here. Granted he knows his shit about SH, you cannot deny that...but there is always a chance he could be wrong.
(And St. Thomas, this is nothing against you. Its just that when half the opinions on this site get shot down or supported with a statement akin to "St. Thomas says so...so it must be true, you n00b." it can get a little annoying to everyone who isn't you.
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The Adversary
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Cool. Take it up with them. I never said I know everything about Silent Hill. But there's the simple fact that, over time, 99% of my theories have become explanations because the developers have supported it with later games.
>Vehemently supporting everything he says seems like a popular pass time around here.
Perhaps people should realize that maybe other folks agree with what I state because, well, it makes perfect sense.
>Vehemently supporting everything he says seems like a popular pass time around here.
Perhaps people should realize that maybe other folks agree with what I state because, well, it makes perfect sense.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
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leodegrance
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The only one of these that I haven't addressed is the formation of squares at the end of the game. Can I see why people think this looks like a window? Yes. Does that mean that it's a window. Not necessarily. An arrangement of nine squares could mean other things (perhaps a tic-tac-toe board showing James how pointless his efforts to deny what he's done have been, a la Wargames—not something I really believe), or it could just mean save here. If each square is a window, then why is it necessary to put them together to form one large window at the end?Glazarus wrote:Hmm... as I said before, you don't provide an explaination to these things in your theories, if you got a better then the window theory, bring it forward and explain these things:
* The formation of the squares in the end.
* The things James say.
* The reason we look directly at them (instead of as it is in the fourth and first game)
You must explain all of these, because they are ALL IN THE GAME.
So, if you have a better theory, you MUST have a plausible explaination for all these. If not, do not counter the window theory!
Doorstop: The whole fourth wall problem is akin to a character in a movie turning directly to the audience and addressing them. It's something that takes you out of the action that's occurring onscreen. When we watch Fellowship of the Ring, for example, we don't ever believe that we're Frodo, but we're willing to follow him on his adventures and share in the experience. If Gollum were to turn to the camera and say, "You realize I'm entirely computer-generated," it takes us out of the story being told and affects our ability to accept the narrative being presented. I know this isn't the best explanation, but I just want to clarify that it's not that we believe we're James.
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the man in the planet
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not arguing, just wondering. do you know they have taken your theories and incorporated them into the mythology or are you saying that things you've theorised about have later shown up in other games?St. Thomas wrote:Cool. Take it up with them. I never said I know everything about Silent Hill. But there's the simple fact that, over time, 99% of my theories have become explanations because the developers have supported it with later games.
anyway, i'm simply putting forth an alternative to the window theory, since it's not one i agree with. i'm not saying the window theory is wrong, it could very well be true. i personally didn't like it and gave an alternate theory, which is just as valid. of a theory.
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pink_isnt_well000
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Glazarus
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The developers themselfs have stated that "we should take notice of the things in the game, like the appearence of the red squeares..." something like that. So, they have a meaning.dan abnormal wrote:i don't think there's any real meaning behind the save points other than the fact that James is writing down his experiences throughout the game with small notes on pieces of red paper. I used to think there was a meaning behind the save points but after exploring the forum i have changed my mind.
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KageReneko
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Hm... A player being sucked by a Silent Hill game during the saving process finishing alone in this hellish place?? Sound fine but no thanks... Opsss, I thinki this is spam... Sorry...Donnergott wrote:Noa THAT would make a cool idea for a story in SH5...!St. Thomas wrote:The red save points are windows from James' mind to ours: We're the ones groping around in his skull; and we're the ones controlling James on his journey. The save screen is of him staring into our reality while we stare calmly back at his.
Maybe my imagination goes too far or perhaps it's too plain and simple.
Now prepare for the SPOILER!!!
When I first played the game and James says "I feel like someone is in my head", I felt like the evil presence behind all this was the one in his head. The evil presence that draws him to Silent Hill and somehow knows about his whole situation.
But when I completed the game and got all the endings, my deduction evolved.
I think that the red piece of paper in red represents the symbolism of Marys letter soaked in blood.
A piece of red paper with letters in it, what else could I think? I think that the save points are a hint towards the player (but we couldn't have figured this out without getting pretty far into this world) and a hint to James about what he has done and what he supresses from his memory.
I think this paper is supposed to remind James that he killed Mary, that Silent Hill uses this one of many tools from his mind to ilustrate what happened.
When James says, "I feel like someone is in my head" I think he says this because he feels like someone knows what he has done and simply slaps it in his face, someone that knows currently more about him than himself. Since James isn't completely but faintly aware of what he has done.
Who knows, maybe it's just his passport
Now prepare for the SPOILER!!!
When I first played the game and James says "I feel like someone is in my head", I felt like the evil presence behind all this was the one in his head. The evil presence that draws him to Silent Hill and somehow knows about his whole situation.
But when I completed the game and got all the endings, my deduction evolved.
I think that the red piece of paper in red represents the symbolism of Marys letter soaked in blood.
A piece of red paper with letters in it, what else could I think? I think that the save points are a hint towards the player (but we couldn't have figured this out without getting pretty far into this world) and a hint to James about what he has done and what he supresses from his memory.
I think this paper is supposed to remind James that he killed Mary, that Silent Hill uses this one of many tools from his mind to ilustrate what happened.
When James says, "I feel like someone is in my head" I think he says this because he feels like someone knows what he has done and simply slaps it in his face, someone that knows currently more about him than himself. Since James isn't completely but faintly aware of what he has done.
Who knows, maybe it's just his passport
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the man in the planet
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well, whatever team silent intended the save system to mean, if anything, i'm propagating my own "theory" since the red square is making an appearance in my short film as a symbol of a "safe" place. so, whatever they meant it to be, that's how it's being used. and no one will "get it" unless they've played SH2 (and even then it may be lost on them).
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Well, another argument to enforce my theory.
There's only 1 Save Point area after the cut scene where you find out that
I think this theory could be interesting, what do you think?
There's only 1 Save Point area after the cut scene where you find out that
PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:
James killed his wife, in this area there is more than one red note. There's 9 red notes on one wall, could it be just a coincidence or another hint to the purpose of the red note saving system? (In case you forgot my theory is that the saving system is based on hinting the player that James killed his wife, akka: Mary's letter in red, either it being soaked in blood or symbolizing it). It could be hard to tell though, because after that cutscene, the hotell and its content goes nutts.