Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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Burning Man
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Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

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...in the scene where he was accusing of James of making of fun of him?

Eddie, have you gone nuts?

I knew it. You too.
You're just like 'em, James.


Hey I didn't mean anything...

Don't bother. I understand.
You've been laughin' at me all along, haven't you?
Ever since we first met.
I'll kill you, James.


This scene is memorable because the camera angle is situated so that it looks like Eddie is talking into the camera. This gives the impression that he's accusing the audience of "laugin' at [Eddie] all along" as well. Eddie also fires into the camera, and it feels like he's shooting at us.

Eddie's first impression at the apartments wasn't a good one. We find him in his most vulnerable state, barfing into the toilet with his pants below his waste, frightened out of his mind. He's also dressed like a child. Many people probably judged him in their own way.

Eddie seems to be calling us out on that. Even if James denies that he had been belittling Eddie, there are indications that he had been. In the bowling alley scene, James berates Eddie for just sitting there eating pizza, and then says "forget you" when he doesn't comply. This wouldn't be something one would do or say to someone you just met - unless you thought little of them in the first place.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

Post by NanayaShiki »

Nah, SH2 isn't really a game about the audience, it's about it's characters. This reminds me of the attempt to say James was looking at the player in the intro.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

Post by The Adversary »

It's an interesting take.

However, the camera shifts to first-person during Angela's fiery staircase scene, as well. Are we meant to also assume she's asking if we can save her? Love her? Take care of her? Heal all her pain?

That's what I thought.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

Post by Jonipoon »

Personally, I've always wondered what would've happened if James had just kept his mouth shut and never uttered those famous last words "Have you gone nuts?".

Because until that line, it always felt like Eddie was not planning on attacking James, but rather saw him as his equal.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

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NanayaShiki wrote:Nah, SH2 isn't really a game about the audience, it's about it's characters.
I think you could say that for the whole series, not just SH2.

We at least know of a fourth-wall break in SH3 with the mall toilet scene. So, it's not like the developers never thought of it.

Speaking of which, when Vincent asks Heather "Monsters? They look like monsters to you?", there's that feeling that Vincent is talking to the audience as well since the camera is angled that way.
The Adversary wrote:However, the camera shifts to first-person during Angela's fiery staircase scene, as well. Are we meant to also assume she's asking if we can save her? Love her? Take care of her? Heal all her pain?
After re-watching this cutscene, I think this is a similar fourth-wall break scene. Glad you brought it up.

Angela is not sincerely asking James if he can save her. She is being sarcastic, and calling him out (and by extension, the audience) that his act of empathy is empty and selfish. In reality, people like to think that they are a good person and offer words of comfort, but most people won't take the necessary step to actually help. I think the official novel even touches up on this a bit as Angela is sick of people pretending that they care.

It might be fun to check if there are more cutscenes like this.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

Post by The Adversary »

>Angela is not sincerely asking James if he can save her. She is being sarcastic<
Yeah, I know. She obviously doesn't expect a legitimate yes. I still don't think she's talking to the audience, regardless. It's just a recurring event, and the last times we see any of those who do.

>It might be fun to check if there are more cutscenes like this.<
The only other times are with Maria when she's in the cell and on the final rooftop. The majority of her monologue in the cell is directed directly at James, or the player, as you suggest. The next time we see her, she's been killed. And then on the rooftop, when she tells him "I"ll never let you have your Mary back." And, finally, James has to kill her for the last time.

Though I suppose you could argue Mary also speaks to James in the same way in the recording of her.

Curiously, the only character who doesn't speak directly to James like this is Laura. And she never dies.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

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The Adversary wrote:I still don't think she's talking to the audience, regardless. It's just a recurring event, and the last times we see any of those who do.
I expect the developers would put scenes like this sparsely. They would need to be played at pivotal moments but in a subtle manner. Fourth-wall breaks are generally used for comedic value so it wouldn't fit the narrative if used without care.

Most of the dialog is too personal to James himself. Those wouldn't be good candidates to break the fourth wall. On the other hand, making fun of an obese man-child, or offering empathy to those who didn't ask for it are common traits that apply to many people.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

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Burning Man wrote: 12 Nov 2022On the other hand, making fun of an obese man-child, or offering empathy to those who didn't ask for it are common traits that apply to many people.
This is a depressing sentence to read. You're supposed to have empathy for both characters. Making fun of people for their weight is a shitty thing to do and while Eddie snapping is a sign of his damaged mental state what happened to him was still a form of emotional abuse. There is no acceptable form of bullying that we should consider normalized. It really sucks that the take-away for a lot of people was "lol the fat man eat the pizza".

This was not a fourth wall breaking moment because... no, you aren't supposed to be making fun of Eddie here. The whole point of the scene is that James WASN'T making fun of him but he's too far gone to realize that. Would make no sense for them to assume the audience was also making fun of him.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

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> Fourth-wall breaks are generally used for comedic value so it wouldn't fit the narrative if used without care.<
I think that proves in Eddie’s case it’s definitely not him talking to the audience. It’s just cinematography.

Heather’s instance is very clearly a break and used for comedic effect. They’re incredibly different examples, and has never been used again in the series.

I can’t buy that Eddie, Maria, and Angela are all talking to the audience. Especially when they all address James directly, even by name.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

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Jonipoon wrote:Personally, I've always wondered what would've happened if James had just kept his mouth shut and never uttered those famous last words "Have you gone nuts?".

Because until that line, it always felt like Eddie was not planning on attacking James, but rather saw him as his equal.
Had James and Eddie parted ways without resolving Eddie's anger and frustration, something much worse may have happened.

Laura would be in imminent danger. She's the only character in SH2 confirmed to have directly abused Eddie both verbally and physically. Eddie's too far gone to care that Laura is only a child. He's threatened to kill anyone who makes fun of him moving forward.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

Post by Jonipoon »

Burning Man wrote: 13 Nov 2022
Jonipoon wrote:Personally, I've always wondered what would've happened if James had just kept his mouth shut and never uttered those famous last words "Have you gone nuts?".

Because until that line, it always felt like Eddie was not planning on attacking James, but rather saw him as his equal.
Had James and Eddie parted ways without resolving Eddie's anger and frustration, something much worse may have happened.

Laura would be in imminent danger. She's the only character in SH2 confirmed to have directly abused Eddie both verbally and physically. Eddie's too far gone to care that Laura is only a child. He's threatened to kill anyone who makes fun of him moving forward.
Good conclusion.

For the remake, it would be interesting to include the option to spare Eddie, or perhaps fail to kill him. It would then result in an additional ending where Eddie has killed Laura. But yeah, it might be too grim.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

Post by The Adversary »

Yeah that might be a lot.

Hell, when I was making "Jimmy the Homicidal Maniac," I labored for like an hour on whether James should kill Laura. Ended up being too funny not to include.

Although a "Spare Eddie" scenario could be interesting, though I still feel like Eddie has to die. Maybe he takes the easy way out in front of James. . . .
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

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The Adversary wrote: 11 Nov 2022 It's an interesting take.

However, the camera shifts to first-person during Angela's fiery staircase scene, as well. Are we meant to also assume she's asking if we can save her? Love her? Take care of her? Heal all her pain?

That's what I thought.
Perhaps she isn't breaking the fourth wall in the traditional sense here, nonetheless, it does feel like a moment in which the player is supposed to ask ourselves if we had been having some sort of unrealistically hopeful expectations about how this was all supposed to turn out for Angela. It has always seemed more likely to me that the player would have a savior complex towards Angela. James has other shit to do.
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Re: Was Eddie breaking the fourth wall

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>It has always seemed more likely to me that the player would have a savior complex towards Angela.<
I don't disagree. I think we all wanted to save Angela at the time.

I had a friend named Ali back in the day. I know I've talked about her on here, though it's certainly been a while. She struggled. A lot. Mental health stuff, abuse, lupus—she couldn't catch a break, really. And she ended up coming to me for help a lot. I loved her so of course I was always there for her. She'd have insomnia and call or text me asking for tips on how to actually fall asleep (not sure why me, 'cuz sleep certainly isn't my forté), so I'd try to help—and would try to help with whatever else was bothering her.

It wasn't enough. I was the last person she texted before she killed herself on Memorial Day in 2011. I asked if she was okay. She responded, "Just tryin to sleep." She OD'd shortly after.

One of the last times I saw her was after she decided to copy my neck tattoo of a James Joyce quote in 'Finnegans Wake.' It reads, "Fall if you but will, rise you must."

She just never could rise, unfortunately. And I miss her every day.

Angela always makes me think of Ali.
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