Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
The Adversary
RESPECT
Posts: 20086
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: #lfk
Contact:

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by The Adversary »

I just re-read it and I like it. (Didn't even realize, somehow, that you referenced my . . . As a House theory, so my bad on that!)

I feel like a case could be made for all three characters experiencing a sort of loop in their experiences. James may have disrupted Eddie's loop this time, though, what with, you know, getting killed and all.

James, meanwhile, could of course relive Mary's misery with Maria, and, hell, maybe there was a Maryann before Mary—or even a Miriam. . . .
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
User avatar
Herr Shaun
Gravedigger
Posts: 495
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Location: Canada

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Herr Shaun »

The Adversary wrote: 14 Oct 2022 I just re-read it and I like it. (Didn't even realize, somehow, that you referenced my . . . As a House theory, so my bad on that!)

I feel like a case could be made for all three characters experiencing a sort of loop in their experiences. James may have disrupted Eddie's loop this time, though, what with, you know, getting killed and all.

James, meanwhile, could of course relive Mary's misery with Maria, and, hell, maybe there was a Maryann before Mary—or even a Miriam. . . .
Hey, thank you so much for your kind words, Tom. That means a lot coming from you. Yeah, your theory is so airtight that I have basically accepted it as canon, and I point it out to newcomers any chance I get.

I definitely considered the others being caught in a loop, and how looking into a mirror symbolizes the consciousness within a new loop beginning (James beginning the game by looking into the rest stop mirror, Angela's true self manifesting in front of the mirror room, potentially Eddie as well since he's in the bathroom). I got pretty overwhelmed though and decided to keep it more simple, but it's something I may consider writing more about.
You've got your good things, and I've got mine.
User avatar
The Adversary
RESPECT
Posts: 20086
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: #lfk
Contact:

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by The Adversary »

>Hey, thank you so much for your kind words, Tom. That means a lot coming from you.<
Hey, I'm just a regular guy now, not a pretentious dickbag like I used to be 15 years ago. But I appreciate the respect.

I mentioned it in another recent thread, so it's worth mentioning here, too, now: I think mirrors are a much more important element than we've given them credit for, and it really started with SILENT HILL 2, though it wasn't fully emphasized until SILENT HILL: ORIGINS.

Of course, the opening sequence of the game is James staring into the restroom mirror, as you mentioned; then Angela's second scene is with the full-length mirror; and it appears there's a large mirror on Eddie's right side in the bathroom, though not emphasized.

SILENT HILL 3 has its own significant mirror scene in Brookhaven Hospital, when Heather slowly transforms into Alessa, essentially, and kills her if she doesn't leave the room fast enough.

I'm still waking up so I'm not entirely sure where I'm going with this, but it's worth discussing at least.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
User avatar
Jonipoon
Subway Guard
Posts: 1718
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Location: Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium
Contact:

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Jonipoon »

^We were all dickbags back then. At least that's how I remember it!

Anyways, the problem with time loops for me are the implications they have for one's sanity. Traditionally speaking, being constantly stuck in a time loop usually means keeping all of your memories intact from the previous loop; and consequently you're faced with the horrific realization that you have relive the same events over and over again. However this has one vital advantage, because with each loop you gain more experience and become better prepared for the next loop. Meaning that you eventually become indifferent to what's happening, eventually culminating in a sense of superiority because you know exactly what's going to happen. This is evident in prominent time loop films like Groundhog Day and Edge of Tomorrow.

While Angela does share some of the classic characteristics of a time looper - boredom, unpredictability, impulsiveness and a general sense of meaninglessness - she doesn't share the most important one which is gained experience. If Angela is stuck in a time loop, why is she still acting all surprised and scared? While it's possible that her exposure to being stuck in a time loop has turned her insane, one might as well assume that her insanity comes from natural reasons (IOW murdering her father) which is of course the most logical explanation. Another way to explain her lack of gained experience would be if this is only her second or third time loop, and for that reason she's still coping with the implications of it. But if that's the case, the existence of a time loop becomes rather pointless.

Observing a time looper from an outsider's perspective is a very difficult thing to comprehend or visualize unless you're being very explicit about it. However if Angela was the main protagonist and playable character in Silent Hill 2, I think the idea of putting her in a time loop would be very plausible and interesting. But as it is now, it's not something I feel coming from her character.

I enjoy reading theories like these, but personally I don't think Angela is in a time loop.
I EAT GALAXIES FOR BREAKFAST.
User avatar
Herr Shaun
Gravedigger
Posts: 495
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Location: Canada

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Herr Shaun »

Jonipoon wrote: 16 Oct 2022If Angela is stuck in a time loop, why is she still acting all surprised and scared?
Angela has suffered a lot of trauma - more than your average person - at the age of only 19. Although she may be used to her physical surroundings by now, there's no getting comfortable with the idea of physical and emotional abuse. That's why she screams when James' unfamiliar hand is coming at her, even though he was just reaching for the knife she wanted him to keep away from her. That's also why she's terrified when we run into her later before the Abstract Daddy fight - she's trapped in a room with her abusive rapist father again, but this time she doesn't have a way to defend herself.
You've got your good things, and I've got mine.
User avatar
Jonipoon
Subway Guard
Posts: 1718
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Location: Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium
Contact:

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Jonipoon »

^The amount of trauma she has suffered doesn't really matter. As a time looper, she'd have experienced James' hand coming at her multiple, if not hundreds of times already. Even as a damaged human being, that sort of gained experience will eventually lead to you not acting surprised.

And as I previously stated, the only way to make it work would be if this is Angela's first or second loop, but that defeats the whole purpose of the existence of a time loop in the first place.
I EAT GALAXIES FOR BREAKFAST.
User avatar
The Adversary
RESPECT
Posts: 20086
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: #lfk
Contact:

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by The Adversary »

>As a time looper, she'd have experienced James' hand coming at her multiple, if not hundreds of times already.<
Unless, say, this is only her second or third time experiencing "the loop." We have no way of saying with certainty that she, or anyone, has done this hundreds of times. This feasibly could be her first time.

That said, we don't have any evidence or suggestions in former or previous games of a loop-style narrative. In its context on its own, it could realistically work. But we don't have a precedent of this type of behavior so we can at least discuss it for funsies.

In fact, James could be in his own loop, as I referenced above. Based on the Maria ending, we can presuppose that her fate will end the same as Mary's. And, in that regard, as per my last email, I mean this theory, perhaps this isn't James' first time going through "the loop." Maybe there was someone before Mary. Maybe it was a Miriam, another variant of Mary/Maria, and a possible—though questionable—explanation for Miriam K. in the Abyss' graveyard. (I don't necessarily believe in that idea, it's just a thought.)
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
User avatar
Droo
Moderator
Posts: 13359
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Gender: Male
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Droo »

Downpour also heavily implies Murphy is also stuck in a time loop in at least one of its endings too, right?
"Oh yeah, I've been here before
I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
User avatar
The Adversary
RESPECT
Posts: 20086
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: #lfk
Contact:

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by The Adversary »

Which ending? I honestly don't remember that game or its endings well enough.

Honestly, for me, SILENT HILL: DOWNPOUR just kinda exists. I don't recall it really adding much to the game's overall lore, besides timeline stuff, though I could easily be mistaken. I only played it once and then watched the other endings separately.
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
User avatar
Droo
Moderator
Posts: 13359
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Gender: Male
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Droo »

"Oh yeah, I've been here before
I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
User avatar
The Adversary
RESPECT
Posts: 20086
Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Location: #lfk
Contact:

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by The Adversary »

Hmm. Fair enough. So we have at least one example of a "loop."

Though one could argue that SILENT HILL also explores a "loop" concept, in that Harry and Jodie initially discover Cheryl, and then Harry and Cybil discover Heather in the same way and location, thus forcing Harry to relive the same situation over and over and over and over again.

I guess this means the Maria ending is canon. . . .
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
User avatar
Droo
Moderator
Posts: 13359
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Gender: Male
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Droo »

Or Rebirth.
"Oh yeah, I've been here before
I can see it with eyes closed
Shadows that look like blood
Dead as far as the mind goes
Fear that comes from my head
Lives in the mirror"
User avatar
Jonipoon
Subway Guard
Posts: 1718
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Location: Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium
Contact:

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Jonipoon »

The Adversary wrote: 19 Oct 2022 Unless, say, this is only her second or third time experiencing "the loop." We have no way of saying with certainty that she, or anyone, has done this hundreds of times. This feasibly could be her first time.
Exactly, and that's why I mentioned that narratively speaking it defeats the purpose of a time loop in the first place. The more leeway and imagination a theory demands, the weaker it is IMO.

I also mentioned that time loops really only work or serve a purpose if it's shown through the experiences of the main protagonist. So when people mention Harry, James or Murphy as possible "proof" it's not really comparable to a secondary character who's observed from another person's perspective. If you look at the movie Groundhog Day for instance, if you remade the movie into Rita's perspective observing one single day of Phil's millions of days, there would be zero evidence of a time loop except for the stuff that Phil specifically tells us directly.

Talking specifically about James, however, presupposing that Maria's fate will end the same as Mary's isn't technically a "time loop" it's just history repeating itself, serving as an allegory to James' failure to learn from his mistakes.
I EAT GALAXIES FOR BREAKFAST.
User avatar
Herr Shaun
Gravedigger
Posts: 495
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Location: Canada

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Herr Shaun »

Jonipoon wrote: 18 Oct 2022 ^The amount of trauma she has suffered doesn't really matter. As a time looper, she'd have experienced James' hand coming at her multiple, if not hundreds of times already. Even as a damaged human being, that sort of gained experience will eventually lead to you not acting surprised.

And as I previously stated, the only way to make it work would be if this is Angela's first or second loop, but that defeats the whole purpose of the existence of a time loop in the first place.
Trauma isn't something you just get used to over time; it follows victims for their entire lives. There are healthy coping mechanisms that people can use to live a relatively normal life in spite of it, but I would hardly call Angela's approach healthy. Additionally, it's not necessarily the case that every one of each character's loops are going to intersect, especially if they are cognizant of the events within previous iterations, therefore it's not a guarantee that James has actually interacted with her more than a handful of times, or even once.

While I fundamentally disagree with your points, I appreciate you weighing in nonetheless, and thank you for giving my post a read.
You've got your good things, and I've got mine.
User avatar
Jonipoon
Subway Guard
Posts: 1718
Joined: 06 Mar 2008
Location: Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium
Contact:

Re: Angela is caught in a loop [Theory] (SPOILERS)

Post by Jonipoon »

^I'm just trying to make sense of it from a narrative point of view. I'm not against the idea of time loops in the Silent Hill universe per se (now-defunct P.T. did it), but I honestly see no benefit from having a secondary character experience time loops if there's basically no evidence for it besides using one's imagination. Stories with time loops commonly center on the character learning from each successive loop through time, and that is what drives the story forward. From an outside perspective you don't see anything, and secondary characters usually have to be thoroughly convinced by the protagonist that they [the protagonist] is in a time loop.

Angela's trauma has rendered her irrational and senseless, but not insane. She's still incapable of sticking to her goal: finding her 'mama'. She's also capable of remembering what James has told her, drawing conclusions about him and Mary based on what he's said, etc.
I EAT GALAXIES FOR BREAKFAST.
Post Reply