Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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Joseph
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by Joseph »

Soulless-Shadow wrote: I know what's officially stated. I re-read Silent Hill Chronicle just before my last post (it's directly above yours). If you'll actually take notice of my last post you'll see a link to it (it's the bold text. I didn't bold it just for shits and giggles). Also, you don't have to underline "officially stated" either, as it comes across as a little douchey.
And I never said anything about Laura seeing monsters. If she is in the otherworld, and I believe she is, there wouldn't be anyone or anything there other than occasionally bumping into James and Eddie, what with the whole "loneliness" thing being a major issue for her.
a) I was actually trying to say during my post that Laura does not see monsters in the city - therefore, the "darkness" she is currently experiencing is indeed powerful, but not powerful enough to create a confusion as bold as to create an Abyss. Unless you are trying to say that Abyss is always there in the Otherworld, no matter what.
b) Jeez, I just underlined three words. HOW ABOUT THAT ONE?
Seriously though, I respect that you felt offended but. . . :|
Soulless-Shadow wrote:Oh, another point; not all children are "innocent". I've read about some horrendous things that children have done. I could give so many examples...
Of course this is all just personal opinion. But really, from what I've read of your posts, your reasoning is simply "she's a child, therefore innocent, therefore exempt from the influence of otherworld and abyss".
No. I did certainly not mean that. What I said is that Laura did not have experiences strong enough to have her heart sink into an abyss. Alessa on the other side, another minor with experiences from the Otherworld, was grown up in a strict religious environment, became a sacrifice and was forced to live a life burned and full of horrible suffering so that she could breed God. This seems like a better reason for a child to have a subconscious filled with monsters and to hold an abyss to her heart.
Also, I seriously cannot understand the whole "loneliness" theme. Cybil got dragged to the Otherworld too. Without a purpose, just because she decided to follow Harry. Her Otherworld (the few times we experienced it) seemed preety similar to Laura's. Does this actually mean she was lonely too? OK we got it; Laura is in the Otherworld. So what? Does she mandatorily hold a darkness in her heart for that?
The Adversary wrote:>And isn't the hotel as well a mirror of his soul?<
No. That's stupid.
...or not.
If this is the case (all the happenings during the game's climax being in the Abyss), then we could certainly assume that the point were James, Angela and Laura have reached is the deepest of the Abyss - the bottom of their heart. To James and Laura, it seems as a hotel (because this is reigning over their subconscious - a visit to the hotel were Mary is supposed to be in order to clear things up) that is either OK, burning, burned down or under reconstruction, dependind their state of psyche.
James is delusional ---> OK -although it isn't-
James learns the truth ---> Burned -although it isn't. The hotel burned down prior to the events of the game. They couldn't have just left it like it was after they "won" the fire. But if we are actually into the Abyss, and the point were James is the deepest of his suconscious, then we could parallelise the hotel with James' relationship with Mary. James thought it was over, but as they left it three years ago - perfect. Realising the truth, he returned to his emotional breakdown and saw the hotel burned. We never get to see it burning, since the actual "burning" for James' and Mary's hotel was Mary's murder, and we experience this via the tape.-
James tries to pick up the pieces ---> Under reconstruction -this is the state to which James' "hotel" should actually be, but he is stopping that with his delusions and the personal fights he's going through.-

To Angela, the end of her Abyss is her own house. She knows she will never leave it, but at the end she gives up. Her "burning" signifies the abuse that she suffered, which she believes will never stop to torment her and exist inside her heart. That's why she decides to give up and ascend the flaming staircase. She even states that: Even Mom said it; I deserved what happened.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by stopped_clock »

Joseph wrote: Also, I seriously cannot understand the whole "loneliness" theme. Cybil got dragged to the Otherworld too. Without a purpose, just because she decided to follow Harry. Her Otherworld (the few times we experienced it) seemed preety similar to Laura's. Does this actually mean she was lonely too? OK we got it; Laura is in the Otherworld. So what? Does she mandatorily hold a darkness in her heart for that?

Those are incomparable situations, Cybil never has her own otherworld, as everyone in SH1 is experiences Alessa's nightmare. Both Cybil and Harry (I think) are dragged in by accident when Alessa darksides the whole town.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by SHF »

Laura does not hold darkness in her heart. At all.
But since people think my theories, or ideas, are usually a little meshuggah, there is proof that i'm right about this.

Just because she can interact with James, doesn't mean that she is in
the otherworld. The otherworld in silent hill 2 is different that in the other games.
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to stopped_clock:

Post by Joseph »

So is Laura though... What is the slightest element we get that proves her interaction with the Otherworld, except several cat drawings and some teddy bears that came out of nowhere? How do these symbolise loneliness?

Completely irrelevant P.S.: Love the "Elephant gun" lyrics to your signature.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by SHF »

She doesn't interact with the otherworld.
How do the cat and teddy bears symbolize loneliness?
Here is an interesting link for teddy bears:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... ymbol.html

About the cat? I think it means that Laura simply likes cats.
Though Adversary has a good theory about how it represents that Laura is the Cheshire cat to james.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

Joseph wrote: a) I was actually trying to say during my post that Laura does not see monsters in the city - therefore, the "darkness" she is currently experiencing is indeed powerful, but not powerful enough to create a confusion as bold as to create an Abyss.
I don't recall saying that Laura created her own Abyss, though I suppose it's possible. If anyone can find their way into the otherworld, then it's possible they could find their way into their own Abyss. Of course, that's assuming the hotel Laura interacts with is her own creation and not a hi-jacking of James' Hotel-Abyss.
Joseph wrote:Unless you are trying to say that Abyss is always there in the Otherworld, no matter what.
I wouldn't have a clue about whether or not the Abyss is always there in the otherworld. I wouldn't be surprised. There has always been a power in that area, and after Alessa there was the otherworld. Perhaps it's possible that when No-where was created in SH1 the Abyss was also created, considering that both seem to have a few similarities. Both seem to be random mismatches of anything and everything. Hell, they even contain buildings that burned down years ago (the Lake View hotel for SH2, and Dahlia's house for SH1).
Joseph wrote:b) Jeez, I just underlined three words. HOW ABOUT THAT ONE?
Seriously though, I respect that you felt offended but. . . :|
It's still douchey.
Joseph wrote:No. I did certainly not mean that.
That was certainly what you seemed to be saying.
Joseph wrote:Alessa on the other side, another minor with experiences from the Otherworld, was grown up in a strict religious environment, became a sacrifice and was forced to live a life burned and full of horrible suffering so that she could breed God. This seems like a better reason for a child to have a subconscious filled with monsters and to hold an abyss to her heart.
Surely Laura's problems are just as big and important to her as Alessa's were to her, even though from the outside observer they seem nothing alike? After all, your problems are major problems to you, regardless of how minor they would be to someone else. Just like another persons problems would pale in comparison to you and yours. It's all about perception.
Joseph wrote:Also, I seriously cannot understand the whole "loneliness" theme. Cybil got dragged to the Otherworld too. Without a purpose, just because she decided to follow Harry. Her Otherworld (the few times we experienced it) seemed preety similar to Laura's. Does this actually mean she was lonely too? OK we got it; Laura is in the Otherworld. So what? Does she mandatorily hold a darkness in her heart for that?
1) Cybil didn't follow Harry. She was simply an innocent bystander who got pulled into Alessa's otherworld. Just like Harry.
2) In SH1 we only ever see Alessa's otherworld. All the characters in SH1 are experiencing the same otherworld; Alessa's.
3) I thought I already explained that one doesn't necessarily need darkness to be pulled into the otherworld?
Joseph wrote:So is Laura though... What is the slightest element we get that proves her interaction with the Otherworld, except several cat drawings and some teddy bears that came out of nowhere? How do these symbolise loneliness?
Laura interacts with something in the otherworld.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by AuraTwilight »

Laura is in the Otherworld. The fact that she can talk to James and Eddy, wander in non-existent buildings, and explore a hospital unfettered as if it were abandoned when it should be, are all undeniable proof of this. The town has no monsters because not only is Laura projecting her loneliness, but she also doesn't hate herself or have any inner conflict.

The toys and whatnot would represent her childish innocence, probably, and how Mary got her thinking that Silent Hill is practically a paradise.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by Joseph »

Well...I don't see how an empty Otherworld indicates loneliness.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

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[quote="AuraTwilight"]Laura is in the Otherworld. The fact that she can talk to James and Eddy, wander in non-existent buildings,
^ wrong. All the buildings she goes into are real.

and explore a hospital unfettered as if it were abandoned when it should be, are all undeniable proof of this. The town has no monsters because not only is Laura projecting her loneliness,

^ she doesn't see monsters because she holds no darkness in her heart. this is even officially stated. Someone kindly posted up the link saying so.


The toys and whatnot would represent her childish innocence,
^pretty much. And also show that she is lonely.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by Joseph »

SHF wrote:All the buildings she goes into are real.
What about Lakeview Hotel?
SHF wrote:And also show that she is lonely.
In which way?
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

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Joseph wrote:
SHF wrote:All the buildings she goes into are real.
What about Lakeview Hotel?

^ It is real. It's just abandoned since it caught fire. It hasn't been demolished, as both Laura and James are able to enter it.
SHF wrote:And also show that she is lonely.
In which way?
^ I posted up the link to answer that question
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by AuraTwilight »

Well...I don't see how an empty Otherworld indicates loneliness.
Because no one is there. Instead of a bustling resort full of happy people, she doesn't see anyone (except the fatso she came to town with and the jerk who made her beloved Mary feel bad).
she doesn't see monsters because she holds no darkness in her heart. this is even officially stated. Someone kindly posted up the link saying so.
Why don't you? Because the idea is fucking bullshit. If she had no darkness in her heart, she wouldn't be in Silent Hill's Otherworld at all.
^ I posted up the link to answer that question
Where?
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by Joseph »

AuraTwilight wrote:
Because no one is there. Instead of a bustling resort full of happy people, she doesn't see anyone (except the fatso she came to town with and the jerk who made her beloved Mary feel bad).
So what? The Book of Lost Memories refers to Laura as one of the "guiltless characters who visit Silent Hill by chance". She could have even entered the Otherworld because she arrived to the city along with Eddie, who does have a purpose of being in the Otherworld. Her Otherworld is empty because her heart isn't obscured by a crime or a traumatic experience. All she sees is cat drawings and teddy bears, that furtherly signify her innocent nature.
What's more, it is possible that the Otherworld only reflects what a person subconsciously wants to experience; SH2's guilty protagonists secretly feel that they need to be punished and that's the reason they want to suffer for what they've done - to be punished by their own personal demons that led them to the terrible crimes they commited. Laura only wants to find Mary: her Otherworld is only built based on Mary's descriptions about the town and that must be the reason she could see the Lakeview Hotel and the piano; Mary graphically desribed them and they meant something to her. Thus, they are significant to Laura's Otherworld.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by The Adversary »

Loneliness is not guilt.
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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by SHF »

Here is the link about the teddy bears and loneliness:
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... ymbol.html

It's an interesting read.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

SHF wrote: ^ wrong. All the buildings she goes into are real.
Wrong. Lake View Hotel burned down a year or two prior to the events of the game.
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Re: Otherworld Shifts in Silent Hill 2

Post by The Adversary »

>her Otherworld is only built based on Mary's descriptions about the town and that must be the reason she could see<
"She even showed me all her pictures." So . . . Mary only took pictures of Lakeview Hotel and a piano? How painfully boring.
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