Angela looking at something in the flaming stairs.

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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AgentX7k
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Post by AgentX7k »

Also people say the room where you first fight abstract daddy had sexual symbolism - The holes with the objects that keep appearing in them.
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Post by Droo »

Because she believes she deserved it. Again, a common feeling amongst sexually abused children.
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Post by RiceDaddy7 »

MMY, I'm sure there will be those who'll give you your desired list of evidence for Angela's sexual abuse that you sought. I don't have the time to do that, but I will point out that for Konami to actual say she was sexually abused might have

1.) Been too distasteful...even though more horrible things have been directly mentioned like murder and dismemberment. Somehow society has more leniancy towards violence over sex in media ( Example: They don't hesitate to show
PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:
Adam Shepherd being cut in half
, but they somehow won't show Dr. Kaufman and Lisa having sex )

2.) Might have sent the game to an A.O. rating.[/spoiler]
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Post by The Adversary »

>because of the reasons i listed...
The name isn't used sarcastically. Burning Man has explained why in this thread.

>Because she believes she deserved it.
Angela never says that she believed her mother was right. She says, "Thank you for saving me. . . . But I wish you hadn't. Even Mama said it. . . . I deserved what happened. . . ." Additionally, the desire to have her father dead is likely stronger than her feeling she deserved it, otherwise she wouldn't necessarily have killed him.

Every time you preface "abuse" w/ "sexually," I can replace it w/ "physically," Drew, and the same still applies.

Listen, I've played the game 60+ times. I know the story front and back. I know the dialogue, the imagery, the sounds, &c. like I know one of my best friends. And although the English translation implies that Angela was raped, there isn't exactly evidence save for the interpretation of certain information—information that can be interpreted in other ways. The Japanese script doesn't the dialogue that Jeremy Blaustein (the English translator) included to make Angela's story more tragic, so I don't think anyone can legitimately say that Angela was sexually abused w/ absolute authority.
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Post by amphreded »

What about the sliding valves?
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Post by AuraTwilight »

I figure that Angela comparing her own situation to James and Mary made for a clue towards sexual abuse. That and the Ideal Daddy being on top of Angela when James walks into the scene.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Post by The Adversary »

>What about the sliding valves?
Represents pain, similar to the r.p.t.'s helmet.

>I figure that . . .
a) James didn't abuse Mary. b) The Ideal Daddy isn't on top of Angela.
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Post by crucifix »

... and the aforementioned figure under the sheet? what's your view on that?
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Post by Droo »

I think Tommy prefers to ignore the figure under the sheet entirely since it doesn't mesh with his viewpoint. I think you'll find that once he's made up his mind about something he becomes incredibly myopic about it.

Angela's mother telling her she deserved it again is highly indicative of sexual abuse. When faced with a daughter who is being sexually abused by her husband, a way for the mother to react is to blame the daughter, and in extreme circumstances may even feel some jealousy towards the daughter as the object of her husband's lust. I know it sounds incredibly fucked up, but it's been known to happen.

Finally, Angela may not overtly indicate that she agrees with what her mother said, but the fact that she's bringing up her mother saying that at all strongly indicates that she does. She says it in a very self-pitying way.

Fire has also been symbolically used in connection with punishment as well as cleansing of the sexually immoral. The fact that Angela's big punishment sequence involves flames and a figure under a bedsheet with a bloody vagina, again, I say does all but do a little tap-dance while holding a sign saying "this girl was raped, see? SEE?" to get its point across.

I don't put much stock in the naming of the creature, and the Abstract Daddy/Ideal Father thing. Since when does the naming of the creatures (which are never named in-game. Ever.) have important narrative insights? Narrative insights that blatantly go against everything else in the actual game that show otherwise. It seems like getting hung up on the wrong detail and, in the process, becoming blind to what your eyes see and your brain tells you during the game itself.

I ask again, regardless of what it's called, why does Angela's monster father show two figures reclining on a BED?
Last edited by Droo on 10 Nov 2008, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by AgentX7k »

Droo wrote:Angela's mother telling her she deserved it again is highly indicative of sexual abuse. When faced with a daughter who is being sexually abused by her husband, a way for the mother to react is to blame the daughter, and in extreme circumstances may even feel some jealousy towards the daughter as the object of her husband's lust. I know it sounds incredibly fucked up, but it's been known to happen
Yeah it's disgusting but it does make sense.
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Post by xarianaxanonymousx »

Maybe That Bed, Door, Or Whatever You May Call It Was Angelas Way Of Blocking Out What Her Daddy Did As He Did It.
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Post by Droo »

Why would Angela mentally cling to a bed while her father physically abused her? That seems sort of random.
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Post by RiceDaddy7 »

Droo wrote:I think Tommy prefers to ignore the figure under the sheet entirely since it doesn't mesh with his viewpoint. I think you'll find that once he's made up his mind about something he becomes incredibly myopic about it.

Angela's mother telling her she deserved it again is highly indicative of sexual abuse. When faced with a daughter who is being sexually abused by her husband, a way for the mother to react is to blame the daughter, and in extreme circumstances may even feel some jealousy towards the daughter as the object of her husband's lust. I know it sounds incredibly fucked up, but it's been known to happen.

Finally, Angela may not overtly indicate that she agrees with what her mother said, but the fact that she's bringing up her mother saying that at all strongly indicates that she does. She says it in a very self-pitying way.

Fire has also been symbolically used in connection with punishment as well as cleansing of the sexually immoral. The fact that Angela's big punishment sequence involves flames and a figure under a bedsheet with a bloody vagina, again, I say does all but do a little tap-dance while holding a sign saying "this girl was raped, see? SEE?" to get its point across.

I don't put much stock in the naming of the creature, and the Abstract Daddy/Ideal Father thing. Since when does the naming of the creatures (which are never named in-game. Ever.) have important narrative insights? Narrative insights that blatantly go against everything else in the actual game that show otherwise. It seems like getting hung up a the wrong detail and, in the process, becoming blind to what your eyes see and your brain tells you during the game itself.

I ask again, regardless of what it's called, why does Angela's monster father show two figures reclining on a BED?
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Post by Droo »

Why thank you. That's precisely what I'm in law school studying to be.
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Post by The Adversary »

>you'll find that once he's made up his mind about something he becomes incredibly myopic
Oh, Drew. You have such a way of being insulting w/out trying to come off as being insulting. Is this how you act in law school, too?

>and the aforementioned figure under the sheet? what's your view on that?
How can you say w/ certainty the figure is a woman?

>why does Angela's monster father show two figures reclining on a BED?
I think you're forgetting something incredibly important: This monster isn't Angela's. James sees it, and you know what? He killed Mary . . . on a bed. If this were solely "Angela's monster," James wouldn't see it thrice more in Lakeview Hotel. Recall that the Mary/ia demon is on a similar bed frame.

Unfortunately for you, Drew, the evidence you've brought up is supposition and would therefore be dismissed in court.
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Post by RiceDaddy7 »

The topic of Silent Hill reminds me of people majoring in Art History as an undergrad for law school. It's an exercise for debate based entirely on the use of evidence to support your argument. The subject is not black and white, and we'll never really know all the answers, but there's enough clues to suggest a certain direction for truth.

I think you'll make a fine lawyer. AuraTwilight on the other hand......er, maybe she'll become the next Nancy Grace :)
MMY wrote: I think you're forgetting something incredibly important: This monster isn't Angela's. James sees it, and you know what? He killed Mary . . . on a bed. If this were solely "Angela's monster," James wouldn't see it thrice more in Lakeview Hotel. Recall that the Mary/ia demon is on a similar bed frame.
You know, I always thought when two Silent Hill victims ended up around one another, they'd temporarily see one another's monsters as they see them. The doorman is clearly Angela's manifestation. James wouldn't know who the father was, and under his interpretation, would look either in human form, or a weird question mark.
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Post by Droo »

I just find that sometimes you need a little push before you'll "stoop" to explaining to us "mere mortals" about your explanations or views on certain topics. You had brushed the figure in the sheet aside, so I thought I'd try and nudge you out of complacency. And gosh, look at that, it worked.

Now, to address you.

Look at the shape of the body under the sheet in these two pictures:

http://z-o-g.org/gallery2/silenthill/sh ... 7.jpg.html
http://z-o-g.org/gallery2/silenthill/sh ... 7.jpg.html

The hips and waist are shaped like a girl. I've never seen a male with such child-bearing hips, so I'm going to go ahead and conclude it's a female.

And before you start going on about the lack of breasts, that could merely be born out of her own personal feelings of shame associated with her sexuality (see below). The figure is too slender to be an adult male (her father), and I see no reason for her to manifest a young boy there.

Also pay close attention to the groin area in the second picture. See that vertical lightish patch running up along the center? It's evocative of labia. Again, indications pointing to a female figure under the sheet.

And, let's say the figure IS male, and I'm wrong. Even so, why manifest it with blood around the groin? Either way you try to interpret the figure, it's a sexually violent image.

Finally, to bring something else to bear, notice how Angela dresses. She is completely covered up. Girls who have been raped commonly react in one of two ways with regards to their appearance. They either become hypersexualized in their appearance in adolescence, or they can go the opposite way and try and desexualize themselves almost completely. Angela is not wearing makeup and she's covered from head to toe. She's wearing a big bulky sweater to deemphasize her femininity. She is aversed to being touched. She maintains physical distance from James except for the momentary delusion that he is her mother.

Hallmarks of a rape victim. If she had merely been physically abused, I don't see strong reasoning why she would be so desexualized in the way she presents herself.

Finally, monsters in Silent Hill are not always unique to the individual (Nurses, cockroaches, Mandarins/Closers, Pyramid Head). James sees one of Eddie's bullies merged with the Lying Figure. He also sees Eddie's victims as Eddie sees them littered around the city, and in the meat locker. Angela may be the source of the Abstract Daddy, but James was able to see it and incorporated it into his own. The similarity between the bed scene and James' own personal demons made it an ideal monster for him to incorporate into his own nightmare. Also, we know that Angela ends up in Lakeview as well, so if she is in the building, her presense there coudl also explain why they appear a few more times to James.

EDIT: Now to seal this argument shut. Let's look at the full text of the post-Abstract Daddy battle scene with Angela.
James: Angela, relax.
Angela: DON'T ORDER ME AROUND!
James: I'm not trying to order you.
A: So what do you want then? Oh, I see. You're trying to be nice to me, right? I know what you're up to. It's always the same. You're only after ONE THING.
J: No, that's not true.
A: You dont have to lie. Go ahead and say it. or you could just force me. Beat me up like...like he always did. You only care about yourself anyway. You disgusting pig. *vomits*
J: Angela...
A: DON'T TOUCH ME! You make me SICK!
Only after one thing? Disgusting pig? Force her like he always did? Explain how these comments do not logically lead to the conclusion of sexual abuse.
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Post by crucifix »

MMY wrote:How can you say w/ certainty the figure is a woman?
does it have to be a woman... ? i thought it was just a representation of sexual assault. you didn't answer; what are your views on what it represents?
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Post by The Adversary »

>they'd temporarily see one another's monsters as they see them
Why does James see the Ideal Father thrice more in the hotel?—when Angela has nothing to do w/ the hotel, nor is she near.

>James wouldn't know who the father was
Yet he does. James reads an article about Thomas' death immediately before confronting Angela in the abyss.

>You had brushed the figure in the sheet aside
I'm glad that you know exactly why I act or react in certain ways. Perhaps, just perhaps, I didn't see the question. That has been known to happen, Drew—as you have evidenced in this thread (or maybe you're intentionally dodging the questions/comments . . .).

>Hallmarks of a rape victim.
Hallmarks of a physical abuse victim.

>Finally, to bring something else to bear, notice how Angela dresses.
I have. I know a lot of people that have a preference to wear sweaters. In fact, I'd say 50% of students at my school have a tendency to wear over-sized sweatshirts or sweaters. I guess now I know why: Every single one of them have been sexually abused.

>we know that Angela ends up in Lakeview as well
Oh? From what I can tell, James traverses through a doorway into an impossible staircase and there she is. I believe he's in Angela's house—he's clearly not in Lakeview hotel, nor is she, considering when he turns around and goes back through the doorway, he's where he would've been had nothing happened.

>Now to seal this argument shut.
Far from it. The dialogue you quoted, as I mentioned in an earlier post, that you neglected, is not entirely in the Japanese script, including the famous "or you could just force me" line; Jeremy Blaustein added it in his translation. For whatever reason, Team Silent didn't make it so "obvious" that Angela had been raped. Perhaps because she wasn't.

>what are your views on what it represents?
I don't have an interpretation of it. I don't really need to. That doesn't mean I'm ignoring its presence, I just don't believe the figures have to mean "Angela was raped, this is proof."
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Post by Droo »

The newspaper is obscured and not entirely readable. There's really no way for James to mentally connect the newspaper with Angela before he enters the room. That's like Harry making the impossible snap judgement to use the aglaophotis on Cybil. It doesn't make much sense.

Okay, so James gets transported by Silent Hill to Angela's house. Why? What purpose does shunting James to Angela's house serve any purpose in James' punishment? Still, James has seen the Abstract Daddy by this point, the imagery of it has struck a chord with his own repressed memories and bingo it becomes his own as well.

I mention how Angela dresses in combination with all the other characteristics of Angela to support my assertion that she has been raped, not to suggest that all people who dress like her are prima facie rape victims. You're taking this out of context entirely and twisting my words.

As for the English retranslation, I don't have access to the original Japanese script. For all I know in the Japanese version of Angela is voiced as a sassy young punk with a propensity for kawaii slang. I'm basing my interpretation of Angela's character on what has been presented to me as a North American player. If Konami didn't want me to interpret it this way they never should have allowed such a monumental, apparently incorrect change as you claim. I liken it to Konami retconning the Japanese version of the game. Konami implicitly endorsed this version to English audiences by releasing it this way.

You still can't refuse to attempt to explain what the figure means. If we are indeed being whisked away into Angela's house and own personal delusion, then the figure on the sheet still maintains its significance to the character. Angela is staring intently at it when James enters the stairway. If it doesn't mean Angela was raped, then, what do you say it means?

Refuting my assignment of what it means and refusing to present an alternative is the very definition of ignoring it. If you didn't see the question before, you're seeing it now. You have now repeatedly been point blank asked to explain it. Cameras are rolling. Go.
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