Angela looking at something in the flaming stairs.

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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Post by The Adversary »

>James gets transported by Silent Hill to Angela's house. Why?
The power of the Otherworld. Why has he seen glimpses of Eddie's victims if they pertain not to James?

>You're taking this out of context entirely and twisting my words.
That sounds familiar.

>I don't have access to the original Japanese script.
Well, you do. You may not have access to a Japanese translation other than Jeremy Blaustein's—who has openly admitted to taking liberties w/ the translation—but you do have access to the script. All versions of the game include the Japanese script.

>Angela is voiced as a sassy young punk with a propensity for kawaii slang.
All of the dialogue is recorded in English, so how she sounds is always the same. However, what she says on-screen and what she says in-script is different.

>If Konami didn't want me to interpret it this way they never should have allowed [it]
Konami isn't entirely to blame. After all, Mr. Blaustein is the one who translated it. Konami OK'd the change, but I find it unlikely that the writers were told what changes were made—esp. given what they've written in both Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition and Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle. I mean, if Team Silent intended on Angela's character to be a rape victim, you think the writers would have mentioned it somewhere in LM:SHC. Aspects of all the other characters are discussed, yet Angela being sexually abused is not—arguably the most important facet of her character (assuming, of course, it's true).

>I liken it to Konami retconning the Japanese version of the game.
I liken it to English-speaking audiences refusing to acknowledge that they actually aren't the center of the gaming universe.

>refusing to present an alternative is the very definition of ignoring it.
Did I ever refuse to? No. I said I don't have one now. Lawyers need to read closely, Drew. Although . . .

Years ago I maintained that the 2 figures represented Thomas and Angela's brother. I still don't disagree w/ my assessment. We know why there are 2 r.p.t.s (Mary and Maria), so why 2 figures here for Angela when there's only one of her? She tells James, "Now you're the only one left. Maybe then . . . maybe then I can rest." Angela killed her father—this is irrefutable. However, her brother's fate is undetermined. This implies, to me, that she killed both w/ intentions of killing her mother as well—she sees her mother as a final "monster" in James, who, too, is a monster for what he did to Mary.
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Post by Cyzyk »

MMY wrote: >I liken it to Konami retconning the Japanese version of the game.
I liken it to English-speaking audiences refusing to acknowledge that they actually aren't the center of the gaming universe.
Actually, they are the center of the gaming universe. The entire RPG genre is an offshoot of tabletop roleplaying (AKA D&D, 1974), and computers originate in the English speaking world. Everything about video games began in the English speaking world (specifically the US, in either 1947, with the CRT device or in 1966, with the prototype Brown Box), and the bulk of sales of video game products is there to this day as well.

I'd like to see some evidence to suggest Angela is not a rape victim. Arguing that because a statement to that effect is not in the extra source material does not constitute a real defense.

In support of her being a rape/sexual assault victim we have:
- Physical imagery (body under sheet, other wall art)
- Abstract Daddies (a dubious point, but there)
- Angela's dress and body language (unchanged from the Japanese version)
- Angela's dialogue (potentially changed from the Japanese version)
- Indirect cues from James's behavior. Note that he is very careful to avoid her space as he learns more about her, a trait one acquires from dealing with similar people in the past.

On that last point, you've repeatedly brought up the claim the English version of the dialogue varies from the Japanese, but you provide no clear evidence to support that claim. Doing so would support your argument a bit more.
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Post by RiceDaddy7 »

You know, I honestly thought Droo would have struck MMY out by now, but the guy keeps on batting. Good job, MMY.

::eats popcorn and enjoy the show::

By the way, good point on why Angela may be trying to find her mom, and the focus on why there are two figures in the fire scene instead of just one.
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Post by Droo »

I agree with you that her intentions were to kill her brother and mother. I have always assumed that Angela's ascent would culminate in a confrontation with her mother.

If the two figures are Thomas and her brother, I still can't reconcile why their groins would be bloody. Genital mutilation is a highly meaningful and symbolic act, and if Angela either desired to or ultimately did kill her father and brother with emasculation as part of the act, there has to be a reason.

Again, I think Konami merely danced around the issue of Angela's rape. It's one thing to have Pyramid Head raping mannequins, it's another thing entirely to discuss sexual abuse of a child in a video game no less.

If the Japanese version has the same spoken dialogue as the North American version, then I am still inclined to defer to the English script. There are differences between a screenplay for a film and the ultimate version you see and hear on the screen. Regardless of original intent, Konami themselves have, by your accounts, in BOTH versions depicted an Angela who says the contested lines.

I don't believe that English speaking audiences are the center of the gaming universe, or ANY entertainment universe. I prefer the original Japanese of shows like .hack//SIGN and Sailor Moon to the butchered, awkward English versions. However, I keep coming back to the fact that the spoken dialogue is the English version in both countries. It amounts to a very strong endorsement on Konami's part of the English dialogue.

All this said, I can't get over Angela's mannerisms and preference to her presented image, the symbolism of the Abstract Daddy, as well as the overtly sexual tones of the Abstract Daddy room and the obvious genital mutilation of the shrouded bodies on the wall, to suggest that even though the Japanese script may be more obscured and subtle on the subject than Blaustein's translation that sexual abuse is still strongly implied to the point that I still think the intention of her being presented as a victim of sexual abuse has been there all along, just never explicitly stated.

I'm not sure why you resist the idea so much. To step out of purely logical arguments here for a moment, don't you think the added element of Angela being a sexually abused child makes her that much more tragic and compelling as a character? To resist this element on the sole basis that it may not have been the original writer's intent seems like cutting off your own nose to spite your face. Sometimes an alteration to a source material can be positive.
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Post by henrytownshend21 »

Can't this just stop? Either way it all ends the same you will have your opinion and he will have his. Also if you keep going on like this the thread will be locked pretty soon.
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Post by RiceDaddy7 »

I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but if Angela was a physically abused victim, wouldn't Konami be a bit more obvious showing her someone with bruises?

There is less evidence that she is a physically abused victim than a sexually abused one.

Also. if we are going with the " lack of full evidence means no conclusive proof " argument, then how is saying she is physically abused at all a reasonable side to take?
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Post by henrytownshend21 »

RiceDaddy dont encourage them.....please....
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Post by The Adversary »

>I'd like to see some evidence to suggest Angela is not a rape victim.
Have enough courtesy to read the thread before responding.

>I think Konami merely danced around the issue of Angela's rape.
Konami produced Silent Hill: the Movie and Alessa is clearly molested by Colin the janitor. They certainly didn't "dance around the issue" then.

>the spoken dialogue is the English version in both countries.
How many Japanese gamers are aware of what's being said, though? I bet about as many English-speaking players understand the Japanese subtitles. You see, the dialogue is English, yet the script is still the Japanese version—what the Japanese-speaking audience is reading is the Japanese script, what the developers wrote, not the English translation.

>It's one thing to have Pyramid Head raping mannequins
I never believed the r.p.t. is raping the mannequins, and I don't believe you can prove that it is anyway, so bringing this up is a moot point.
>don't you think the added element of Angela being a sexually abused child makes her that much more tragic and compelling as a character?

Why, exactly, does Angela have to be a "much more tragic" character? For me, that draws attention from James' story, when, after all, Mary is the tragic character in this game. Should Angela's story really supersede the tragedy of Mary's?

>wouldn't Konami be a bit more obvious showing her someone with bruises?
Showing her someone w/ bruises? What?

>There is less evidence that she is a physically abused victim than a sexually abused one.
According to. . . ? The "evidence" I've been given is supposition—which, you know, isn't evidence.

>then how is saying she is physically abused at all a reasonable side to take?
Angela says she was abused. Just not sexually.
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Post by henrytownshend21 »

Yes ignore me of course why not. Btw its true he is not raping the mannequins he is stuffing them down the garbage disposal. I forgot but a deveolper even said so.
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Post by The Adversary »

If you have nothing to contribute, ignore the topic.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

I think you'll make a fine lawyer. AuraTwilight on the other hand......er, maybe she'll become the next Nancy Grace
Did I really need to be dragged in this? What ever happened to Mr. "I'm grown up and not a college kid so I'm gonna let this go"? Hypocrite.
I prefer the original Japanese of shows like .hack//SIGN and Sailor Moon to the butchered, awkward English versions.
I've also gotta comment: In all fairness, .hack//Sign received a splendid translation. Don't lump it with Sailor Moon's DiC rape.
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Post by RiceDaddy7 »

MMY wrote:Showing her someone w/ bruises? What?
Sorry typo. You know what I meant. " Showing her as something with bruises ".
MMY wrote:According to. . . ? The "evidence" I've been given is supposition—which, you know, isn't evidence.
Droo has presented a lot of concrete facts to support his argument ( dialogue, Angela's actions, bloody crouch area of figure ). While it's true you may have shot down some of these facts, you didn't really do so through counter-arguing with facts of your own. The only time I recalled you doing so was when you offered the fact that there were two instead of one figures in the flaming room. Other than that, it was usually things like " well, I know 50% people who dress like Angela and they're not rape victims ". That is not countering direct facts with direct facts. You make good points, but they only prevent Droo from completely proving her as a sexual victim. They do not, in any way, start leaning toward the suggestion that she was physically abused.

In fact, I can come up with the theory that she was verbally abused using the same arguments that you have. Yeah. That's right. Her dad and her mom only verbally abused her and she took it too extremely and killed them. We can't prove Droo 100% right, so does that make my stupid theory right? Of course not.

Look, I'm willing to believe you if you just point a few things out that support your theory. Disproving Droo doesn't mean your case will be right. Unless, of course, your whole point is merely " we don't know. We can't know ".
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Post by The Adversary »

>You know what I meant.
Please don't tell me what I know.

>you didn't really do so through counter-arguing with facts of your own.
No one is countering what I've said, yet I've managed to counter their proclamations.

>That is not countering direct facts with direct facts.
Yet it disproves the "evidence" presented, as I intended. Saying Angela wears a sweater because she was raped isn't evidence, it's a fallacy of equivocation: "Rape victims conceal their bodies. Angela conceals her body. Therefore, Angela is a rape victim."

>They do not start leaning toward the suggestion that she was physically abused.
As I've said before: We have proof that she was physically abused. We do not have proof that she was sexually abused. Proof > supposition

>Her dad and her mom only verbally abused her
Angela explicitly states that her father physically abused her. Your argument is already disproved.
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Post by Droo »

henrytownshend21 wrote:Can't this just stop? Either way it all ends the same you will have your opinion and he will have his. Also if you keep going on like this the thread will be locked pretty soon.
Umm...no? This kind is debate is precisely what this forum is for. This is good.

And the topic won't be locked unless it devolves into a flame fest. We're having a civil discourse here.
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Post by RiceDaddy7 »

MMY wrote:Please don't tell me what I know.
Um, I was just pointing out what was obviously said even though there was a slight typo. If you're suggesting you really didn't know then I regrettably question your intelligence.
MMY wrote:As I've said before: We have proof that she was physically abused........Angela explicitly states that her father physically abused her. Your argument is already disproved.
If you're referring to this line as the only evidence you have:

Angela: You don't have to lie. Go ahead and say it. Or you could just force me. Beat me up like he always did.

Then maybe you should wonder what the term " force " is doing there? Force, under this context was not necessary when it came to beating people up. Usually when people are victims of physical abuse, the person abusing them is doing so because they're taking out their issues on them. It's not primarily an act of intimidation. People with power trips don't abuse their own loved ones; but people who have internal issues project their hatred to loved ones. So what was the word " force " doing in that sentence? The only possible reason would be force of sex, since force of power is ruled out.

I know I sound like Droo using this as " evidence ", but this is consistent with psychology.

EDIT: And I found this little gem too:

Angela: You said your wife Mary was dead, right?

James: Yes, she was ill...

Angela: Liar! I know about you.... You didn't want her around anymore. You probably found someone else.

Look at that last sentence there. " I know [all] about you ". As in, she knows what men really want. All men are the same. They want one thing. Sex. And when they can't get it anymore, they move on to someone else. It suggests here that she believes James killed Mary because he was no longer turned on by her sexually. This fits thematically with James' own problems. It's consistent with the theme of Silent Hill 2, which is love and disturbing sexual issues. James killed his wife because he lost interest in her, not because he did it out of mercy of her suffering.
AuraTwilight wrote:Did I really need to be dragged in this? What ever happened to Mr. "I'm grown up and not a college kid so I'm gonna let this go"? Hypocrite.
Actually, I let it go because the discussion we were having was way off-topic, spammed about 5 pages, and was going in circles. If it was SH-related and a good debate, you could've called me a peckerhead in every response and I would've went as far as you'd want it to go.

As for mentioning you here........... :p
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Post by crucifix »

MMY wrote:I don't have an interpretation of it. I don't really need to.
uh... what? when it's clearly there, representing something rather obvious? hmm.

MMY wrote:That doesn't mean I'm ignoring its presence, I just don't believe the figures have to mean "Angela was raped, this is proof."
i think it's another piece of evidence that forms the conclusion that she was indeed sexually abused.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

Actually, I let it go because the discussion we were having was way off-topic, spammed about 5 pages, and was going in circles. If it was SH-related and a good debate, you could've called me a peckerhead in every response and I would've went as far as you'd want it to go.

As for mentioning you here........... :p
Still, it makes it seem like you're just BAITING me into a response so we can have another circular, off-topic argument. In the future, don't be an asshole and don't drag me into your analogies. I didn't do shit to deserve it, whatever you might think.
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Post by RiceDaddy7 »

Hah. Hahahaha. To you, everyone is an asshole. Get some therapy.
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Post by The Adversary »

>If you're referring to this line as the only evidence you have:
No, that isn't the "only evidence" I have, esp. if you've been paying attention you'll know that that line isn't in the Japanese script.

>As in, she knows what men really want. All men are the same.
That is arguably the most tenuous leap I've read in this thread. She "know[s] all about" James in the sense that she knows what he did to Mary. He finds messages about her; she finds messages about him. I suspect that Angela found one of the 3 memos about how to obtain the other endings as well: "Choosing Death," "The Road to Tomorrow," and "How to be a Happy Couple." The "someone else" Angela is referring to is, then, Maria, as in "How to be a Happy Couple."

>James killed his wife because he lost interest in her, not because he did it out of mercy
That, too, is incredibly debatable. Krist. has offered a well-written essay on the subject, and I'm inclined to agree w/ her postulations.

>when it's clearly there, representing something rather obvious?
I wouldn't consider it "obvious" when this discussion is still happening, years later. And please read the rest of the thread: I've offered my explanation of the figures already.
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Post by The Follower »

RiceDaddy7 wrote: James killed his wife because he lost interest in her, not because he did it out of mercy of her suffering.
This is just one interpretation of many. James' character can be viewed in a multitude of ways, none of them are right, and none of them are wrong. They're just different opinions.

But, MMY....

Others have provided evidence of sexual symbolism throughout the game. The blood in the vaginal area, the sexually themed monsters, the use of "force" in Angela's dialouge, the room in which Angela fights her father which resembles pensis entering and exiting out of holes. Literature doesn't need to come right out and state something for it to be true. Once enough evidence is gathered through symbolism and or dialouge, a certain view is taken to be truth. In the case of Angela, I think it's best to believe that she was sexually abused. After all, why wouldn't she be? We've got all this sexual symbolism that surrounds her character.

If you could provide more concrete evidence on the idea that she was only physically abused, then your arguemtn would be more valid. But others have pointed towards enough evidence to strongly suggest that she was sexually assaulted.

With this evidence in front of you, why are you so reluctant to assume that what it points toward is true?

Edit: Additionally, the abstract Daddy is described in Lost Memories book as having two reclining figures on top of it and states that it is a symbol of Angela's past. It also states that it attacks by "smothering" its victims. Seems to be sexual in nature to me.
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