[Unmarked spoilers for all games] Maria: 'Bodily Half' . . ?

[Conjurer]

Before you decide to rifle me with links that lead to other Maria topics, please hear this one out. My reasoning for creating yet another Maria topic: the point of this topic's creation revolves around the fact that I've never seen a logical explanation to make sense of Maria being Mary's "bodily" half. Now, I pondered whether the human avatar of Maria was James's illusion and the monster we fight at the end of the game was Mary's creation (the true form of Maria), but if you fulfill the requirements for the Maria ending, the monster will appear as Mary instead. So, this leads me to believe that the final boss wasn't originally Maria. But then, that led me to wonder why the illusionary Maria (if we can call it that) decided to "dress" herself onto this monster at this point. I began to wonder if this "Maria entity" is basically a parasite that attaches herself onto other random monsters (either as some sub/un/conscious response of James and/or Mary) as a means to have a physical body? It would make sense, since Pyramid Head is able to slay her (I don't see how Pyramid Head could've killed an illusion). Even though these thoughts have made sense to me, considering the fact that it's heavily implied that the human form of Maria is James's delusion, all of my thoughts fall apart with the simple mention from the creators that Maria being a "bodily half" of Mary and like Alessa and Cheryl.

Can anyone who has a good grasp on the series make sense of this? ..because I can't.

[Abdiel]

Hmm... sounds a bit like that parasite theory that was kicking around on the SH1 board - about how the nurses in SH1 were all carrying parasitic demons. This would suggest that the monsters of Silent Hill are spirits from the Otherworld possessing existing life forms - maybe fragments of the Holy Mother trying to manifest herself. If this is the case, maybe the "Mary" in Silent Hill is less James's wife and more an aspect of the Goddess.

I suppose it all depends whether you look at it from the point of view of an illusionary nightmare, or the point of view of a physical hell replete with sentient entities.

I like to think that the Otherworld is the pain and suffering of the Holy Mother (this is her nightmare world alone), and it merely resonates in the presence of similar suffering (i.e. the pain of Alessa/Mary/Walter), allowing the Holy Mother to reach out and affect reality.

In this case, Maria would be a kind of parasitic spirit - a recurring fragment of the Holy Mother fuelled by James's guilt and Mary's anguish.

*gets shot* Gaah!

[AdjectiveRyan]

the only thing l don't get about maria being an illusion for james is why would they(team silent) make the sub-scenario for maria? also, in SH3, why would there be a poster of her in heaven's night? if she's just made up, why would there be signs of a true existence? then again, how does she not stay dead after the elevator, the jail cell in the labyrinth, and pyramid head spearing her while you watch helplessly incidents(in case of maria ending)? also, if mary stayed at brookhaven, why would she want to 'go back' to silent hill? wouldn't she already be there? ARGH! this is why l'm starting to like 4 more. l don't see any 'holes' in it.

[Conjurer]

the only thing l don't get about maria being an illusion for james is why would they(team silent) make the sub-scenario for maria?

To get to know her better? To show that she's more than just an illusion? I forgot to mention Born From a Wish in my first post as being, yet another, bash to my understanding..

also, in SH3, why would there be a poster of her in heaven's night? if she's just made up, why would there be signs of a true existence?

That was a different Maria, "Lady Maria". This stripper had dark hair.

then again, how does she not stay dead after the elevator, the jail cell in the labyrinth, and pyramid head spearing her while you watch helplessly incidents(in case of maria ending)?

This is something that confused me as well. If Maria was James's delusion, James could simply just see a monster as Maria and the monster would act, accordingly to his conscious, which could answer how she is able to keep coming back, but she's not James's illusions because of Born From a Wish and her being Mary's "bodily half", URG!

also, if mary stayed at brookhaven, why would she want to 'go back' to silent hill? wouldn't she already be there? ARGH! this is why I'm starting to like 4 more. l don't see any 'holes' in it.

Not sure what you mean, but... she probably wrote that letter that says she's going to Silent Hill at St. Joseph's hospital, before she was transferred to Brookhaven.

Moving on to Maria..

[AuraTwilight]

It's simple: She's a hodgepodge of both pieces of Mary's mind and James' delusions. She is, for all intents and purposes, like the monsters James created, but she had a bigger degree of free will, self-awareness, and access to knowledge and personality traits that only Mary should have.

[Conjurer]

Could you explain your answer more thoroughly? How can something be partially James's imagination and Mary's? Also, how do you think that fits with Maria being Mary's "bodily half"? Like Cheryl is to Alessa..?

[AuraTwilight]

Well, the idea is that some of Maria was imagined up by Mary, and other parts by James. And the similarities between Mary/Maria and Alessa/Cheryl could be purely aesthetic. I mean, it's not like Cheryl or Maria are literal "Bodily halfs" anyway, so it's probably just a catch-all label for beings like them.

[Conjurer]

~Well, the idea is that some of Maria was imagined up by Mary, and other parts by James.
But how in the world would that work, though? If Maria is some kind of complicated illusion (which is heavily implied since no one but James could see her), how would a part of Mary's mind "travel" into James's mind..? It's very awkward. And, if it's supposed to be that James is conjuring up random monsters that he perceives as Maria, how could he see an illusion Mary created? It's not like the players see Abstract Daddy look like Angela's real father. No one but the person that created the illusion can see it?

~And the similarities between Mary/Maria and Alessa/Cheryl could be purely aesthetic. I mean, it's not like Cheryl or Maria are literal "Bodily halfs" anyway, so it's probably just a catch-all label for beings like them.
Not sure what you mean by "aesthetic", but I'm pretty sure they truly meant "bodily half" when they were talking about Cheryl, since it's implied that Alessa literally split herself in half. Basically, bodily = physical/physically there and it just puts no sense into what Maria is.

Before you take my comments offensively (if you do), don't, because I'm only continuing to discuss this because the whole idea still confuses me, either because I'm dwelling too much on some things or we need to pursue a new idea?

[AuraTwilight]

But how in the world would that work, though? If Maria is some kind of complicated illusion (which is heavily implied since no one but James could see her), how would a part of Maria's mind "travel" into James's mind..? It's very awkward.

Not really. Minds overlapping happens all the time in Otherworld. It's the only way people like James, Laura, and Angela are able to meet each other. Another example of overlapping thoughts would be the notes James finds, which are the thoughts of people that James sees and interprets as notes and written articles.

And, if it's supposed to be that James is conjuring up random monsters that he perceives as Maria, how could he see an illusion Mary created? It's not like the players see Abstract Daddy look like Angela's real father. No one but the person that created the illusion can see it?

You're misunderstanding me, I think. Maria isn't just some monster that looks like a woman to James, or anything. She's an illusion, but she has two "Creators". James created parts of Maria to be the perfect woman for him, as we all know, and Maria also shows parts of Mary's personality and thoughts that James simply doesn't know about at all, an example being Mary's emotional attachment to Laura, which Maria also has.

Not sure what you mean by "aesthetic", but I'm pretty sure they truly meant "bodily half" when they were talking about Cheryl, since it's implied that Alessa literally split herself in half. Basically, bodily = physical/physically there and it just puts no sense into what Maria is.

Cheryl was half of Alessa's soul, given her own body by Alessa's powers. Maria could be similar. Although Mary didn't literally break off part of her soul or anything, she could've contributed some of the "blueprints", so to speak, to Maria.

[Goodnight]

"creators that Maria being a "bodily half" of Mary and like Alessa and Cheryl. "

They never said Mary and Maria were the same as Cheryl and Alessa. Those are completely different and unrelated stories. Maria is NOT a real human being like Cheryl or Alessa were. She is, as you first supposed, a delusion - even in the Maria ending.

In regards to the Maria ending and the Born From a Wish scenario:

To obtain this ending, you have to actively ignore your quest for Mary in favour of following Maria. You have to talk to her, protect her and avoid going straight to your destinations. Maria is represented by the Seductress plate - she is trying to seduce James away from Mary and the truth, and lead him deeper into his delusion.

If you obtain the Maria ending, you fight Mary because Maria won - Maria seduced James into choosing the delusion over Mary and the truth she represents. He leaves with Maria, fully emersed in his delusion. Maria coughs at the end, implying that until James accepts the truth and faces up to his actions, he is doomed to repeat the past.

As others have said, Born From A Wish isn’t really anything more than a scenario to humanise Maria and give her some kind of past - note that she doesn’t know anything much about herself or her life. Not only that, but she doesn’t interact with a real person there, either - just another illusion.

Maria is no different to the monsters James faces - she is a product of the town's power, no matter whether she was the culmination of James' desire for a sexual, vibrant wife or Mary's desire to be like that for James.

[AuraTwilight]

They never said Mary and Maria were the same as Cheryl and Alessa. Those are completely different and unrelated stories. Maria is NOT a real human being like Cheryl or Alessa were. She is, as you first supposed, a delusion - even in the Maria ending.

Yea, except they DID say that. Everyone else in this thread, including the OP, knows this and it's the reason it was made.

As others have said, Born From A Wish isn’t really anything more than a scenario to humanise Maria and give her some kind of past - note that she doesn’t know anything much about herself or her life. Not only that, but she doesn’t interact with a real person there, either - just another illusion.

A ghost, actually.

Maria is no different to the monsters James faces - she is a product of the town's power, no matter whether she was the culmination of James' desire for a sexual, vibrant wife or Mary's desire to be like that for James.

Do you have a source for that claim?

[The Adversary]

>They never said Mary and Maria were the same as Cheryl and Alessa.
As AuraTwilight said, this discussion was made because the developers explicitly stated they are similar to one another, and the term "bodily half" is used in direct correlation with the two pairs.

>she is a product of the town's power
If this were the case, the sub-scenario wouldn't be called "Born From A Wish," but rather "Born From The Town". . . .

[Conjurer]

~Minds overlapping happens all the time in Otherworld. It's the only way people like James, Laura, and Angela are able to meet each other.
If this were the case, why didn't we see Abstract Daddy as Thomas Orosco? Or, why didn't James see himself, as Mrs. Orosco at the brief moment of being on the burning stairs? Why didn't Laura see Maria? Of course, Laura never confirms or denies seeing Maria after leaving Pete's Bowl-o-rama, but you'd think she'd stop or say something about seeing a woman that's identical looking to Mary?

That's why I can't buy the "minds overlap in Silent Hill" theory when it comes to explaining Maria. And, if you're going to say that James was able to see an illusion created from Mary because he had some sort of emotional connection with her, I could say the same thing with Laura, who didn't see Maria.

Now, lets go back to your explanation of Maria's image being James's creation, and her thoughts being Mary's. How would that work..? I really don't think Mary is sitting somewhere, supernaturally putting copied thoughts into an illusionary Doppelganger James might decide to leave her for. I'm not sure James was able to have access to Mary's mind either. Unless I'm missing something..

~You're misunderstanding me, I think. Maria isn't just some monster that looks like a woman to James, or anything. She's an illusion, but she has two "Creators".
No, I understood what you were saying, but I was just thinking of an alternate way to interpret the explanation of Maria being both Mary's and James's creation - James making the monsters for Mary's illusion to take over for it's own, physical body (since this happens in 3/4 endings with the floating Mary monster and how else could Maria "physically" be killed by Pyramid Head if she wasn't a real, physical person to begin with?).

~James created parts of Maria to be the perfect woman for him, as we all know[...]
Actually, one could interpret that Mary was, in a way, changing for James, if you take into consideration the apartment room with a mannequin wearing Mary's dress and the makeup and lipstick by the mirror. Either that, or it could symbolize Mary changing for James's desires? I don't think there's really a point to this explanation, though, except maybe to further complicate things.

~[...]and Maria also shows parts of Mary's personality and thoughts that James simply doesn't know about at all, an example being Mary's emotional attachment to Laura, which Maria also has.
She even seems to go as far as to be briefly possessed by a happy, kind Mary persona, under the labyrinth, but it doesn't seem to phase her or bother her at all. She doesn't even confirm or deny whether she realized it or not.. (adding more complexity to her origins.)

But anyway, they almost make it seem like Maria is a real, physical person to some extent, since she could pick things up, feel emotions, pop pills, communicate to a ghost (how could a ghost, who is essentially another person, talk to an illusion?). If per se, Maria is a random monster created from James or Mary that the illusionary Maria is using as a host, why would Ernest Baldwin be talking to her normally..? Ernest has no reason to percieve the monster as Maria (Laura didn't). The only explanation I could think of, is that she was a real person, at that point (not originally, though). But...

~>she is a product of the town's power
If this were the case, the sub-scenario wouldn't be called "Born From A Wish," but rather "Born From The Town". . . .
To add to this, I don't think that there's ever a case where the town itself does things for people or at any point demonstrates itself as a living object. I believe that the town, or at least the unreality, merely amplifies the power of one's sub/un/conscious.

[AuraTwilight]

If this were the case, why didn't we see Abstract Daddy as Thomas Orosco? Or, why didn't James see himself, as Mrs. Orosco at the brief moment of being on the burning stairs? Why didn't Laura see Maria? Of course, Laura never confirms or denies seeing Maria after leaving Pete's Bowl-o-rama, but you'd think she'd stop or say something about seeing a woman that's identical looking to Mary?

I said minds overlap, not completely overtake one another. If minds weren't overlapping, James wouldn't see Abstract Daddy at ALL, much less as a monster, and James also wouldn't see the fire around Angela, along with a load of other examples. The monsterous Abstract Daddy is like Maria. It's a "compromise" of minds, based on Angela's mind and James' perceptions of it.

And Laura never sees Maria. She has absolutely no reason to. She's just there for James.

That's why I can't buy the "minds overlap in Silent Hill" theory when it comes to explaining Maria. And, if you're going to say that James was able to see an illusion created from Mary because he had some sort of emotional connection with her, I could say the same thing with Laura, who didn't see Maria.

And as I said, while James may have a reason for Maria, Laura doesn't. She wants MARY, and Mary only. Unlike James, she won't settle for a knock-off.

Now, lets go back to your explanation of Maria's image being James's creation, and her thoughts being Mary's. How would that work..? I really don't think Mary is sitting somewhere, supernaturally putting copied thoughts into an illusionary Doppelganger James might decide to leave her for. I'm not sure James was able to have access to Mary's mind either. Unless I'm missing something..

I'm not saying she's sitting somewhere supernaturally shoving her thoughts in Maria, but hell, for all we know, some of her thoughts and emotions from when she visited Silent Hill with James was "imprinted" into the Otherworld,and when Maria was born, those imprints went into her creation. It's an undeniable fact that Maria has access to information James doesn't, so the only other explanation is Mary.

Also, Mary is in Otherworld in atleast some sense, since she appears in the endings, so it's not out of the question for her to contribute some of her thoughts and emotions, subconsciously or otherwise.

No, I understood what you were saying, but I was just thinking of an alternate way to interpret the explanation of Maria being both Mary's and James's creation - James making the monsters for Mary's illusion to take over for it's own, physical body (since this happens in 3/4 endings with the floating Mary monster and how else could Maria "physically" be killed by Pyramid Head if she wasn't a real, physical person to begin with?).

A manifestation can kill another manifestation. Anyway, I'm saying James and Mary BOTH contributed to BOTH Maria's mind and body.

Actually, one could interpret that Mary was, in a way, changing for James, if you take into consideration the apartment room with a mannequin wearing Mary's dress and the makeup and lipstick by the mirror. Either that, or it could symbolize Mary changing for James's desires? I don't think there's really a point to this explanation, though, except maybe to further complicate things.

Or that room can be symbolic of James changing Mary in his mind into the ideal Maria.

She even seems to go as far as to be briefly possessed by a happy, kind Mary persona, under the labyrinth, but it doesn't seem to phase her or bother her at all. She doesn't even confirm or deny whether she realized it or not.. (adding more complexity to her origins.)

Right. Because part of her was created by Mary.

But anyway, they almost make it seem like Maria is a real, physical person to some extent, since she could pick things up, feel emotions, pop pills, communicate to a ghost (how could a ghost, who is essentially another person, talk to an illusion?). If per se, Maria is a random monster created from James or Mary that the illusionary Maria is using as a host, why would Ernest Baldwin be talking to her normally..? Ernest has no reason to percieve the monster as Maria (Laura didn't). The only explanation I could think of, is that she was a real person, at that point (not originally, though). But...

Well yea. Everything in Otherworld is physical and tangible. It's not projecting literal holographic illusions, but a dimension that literally makes thoughts into reality. I don't think either you, me, or Adversary were trying to imply Maria was less than solid. As for a ghost talking to an illusion, I have just this to say: "LOL overlapping minds."

Um, no one said that Maria was just some spirit possessing other monsters. And Ernest is able to communicate and perceive Maria because he has a reason to: IE, he can use her, and she can also use his help. Though no, Maria's not a "real person". She's basically a sort of "A.I." of the Otherworld, if that makes any sense.

To add to this, I don't think that there's ever a case where the town itself does things for people or at any point demonstrates itself as a living object. I believe that the town, or at least the unreality, merely amplifies the power of one's sub/un/conscious.

Correct. Silent Hill's Otherworld is merely a canvas.

[Conjurer]

~If minds weren't overlapping, James wouldn't see Abstract Daddy at ALL, much less as a monster, and James also wouldn't see the fire around Angela, along with a load of other examples.
I don't think minds "overlap" so to speak, but I think random people around the unreality of the town are manifesting their own elements of their minds (it doesn't matter if things are conjured by different minds, everyone's on the same plane of reality) because we can see the Mark of Samael in the Lakeview Hotel, which indicates that even Alessa's unreality is on the same layer and plane as James's and so on. So, how do we know that when James enters through the door that leads to Angela's living room that it isn't the same case with James leaving the burnt Lakeview Hotel and entering an area similar looking to the room Mary was murdered in? Or how James exists the abyss, ends up behind the Historical Society?

I've always thought that Abstract Daddy was Thomas's thought that clings to Angela's house or her own conjuration but she saw it as her father as James sees a monster created from himself or Mary as Maria. That's why can't buy the "overlapping theory", especially since you're saying that it only happens with James and Mary but not James and Angela?

~And Laura never sees Maria. She has absolutely no reason to. She's just there for James.
And that's my point. If Maria is a physical manifestation, like Abstract Daddy, everyone should be able to see it. But, then again, maybe Laura did see Maria, but instead of seeing her as a monster or what ever Maria truly looks like under that illusion, she saw her as an adult or a nurse (maybe even Rachel) trying to chase her? In fact, that makes me ponder why Laura mentions "But don't tell Rachel", even though she's in Ashfield, many, many miles away. She has no reason to worry about her or James telling her that she took something her locker unless she saw her in the town..

~She wants MARY, and Mary only. Unlike James, she won't settle for a knock-off.
Well, Laura did settle for James instead of Mary in the Leave ending, though...

Also, James wanted Mary too.

~[...]for all we know, some of her thoughts and emotions from when she visited Silent Hill with James was "imprinted" into the Otherworld,and when Maria was born, those imprints went into her creation.
Hmm.. That makes sense, I think. It would make even more sense if Maria was actually physical, though.

~A manifestation can kill another manifestation. Anyway, I'm saying James and Mary BOTH contributed to BOTH Maria's mind and body.
I know that. That's why I'm considering the possibility that Maria might actually be a monster James's perceiving as a woman and is acting accordingly his sub/un/conscious desire. I'm having a very hard time buying that Maria's real physical form is actually... Maria because she transforms into a monster in 3/4 endings and we know for a fact that Maria wasn't originally that monster because the same monster can be percieved as Mary.

~Or that room can be symbolic of James changing Mary in his mind into the ideal Maria.
I disagree because James came to Silent Hill to see if Mary was really alive, waiting for him, not for booty call.

~Everything in Otherworld is physical and tangible. It's not projecting literal holographic illusions, but a dimension that literally makes thoughts into reality.
Except for "pappa", "mamma", and possibly the human avatar of Maria. Scroll up to see my reasoning to why.

~I don't think either you, me, or Adversary were trying to imply Maria was less than solid.
I was; to understand my reasons, scroll up to my explanation of Maria and the final boss.

~As for a ghost talking to an illusion, I have just this to say: "LOL overlapping minds."[...]And Ernest is able to communicate and perceive Maria because he has a reason to: IE, he can use her, and she can also use his help.
If the minds truly overlapped, like you say, we'd be able to see Mr. and Mrs. Orosco. Scroll up to see more of my reasons.

Ernest could've perceived Maria as some other random person, like his wife or something, if he wanted help. Why did he have to see her as Maria..? Unless Maria's physical true form is herself, which is impossible because she turns into a monster at the end, which also can't be, because the final monster wasn't originally Maria... *sigh*

~Um, no one said that Maria was just some spirit possessing other monsters.
I wasn't saying she was a "spirit"; I was saying that a part of James's mind is perceiving particular monsters as Maria, and with that, the monster will act accordingly to James's subconscious until killed by something. James will again, come across a random monster and the "Maria illusion" will overlap it. I'm not saying that this is for sure though, since I don't see how Ernest could've perceived a monster as something only James could see.

I hope everyone reading this is able to see that I've tried to think of every kind of scenario to explain Maria, but all of them seem to contain flaws ... *smashes head on table*

[Goodnight]

"A ghost, actually. "

Yes. I realise.

"Do you have a source for that claim?"

There are countless topics here that discuss Maria being Mary's ideal, rather than James'. That Maria is James' ideal is another popular theory, although I don't subscribe to it myself.

I believe I failed to explain myself properly - I meant that Maria and Mary aren't the same as Alessa and Cheryl, insomuch as they are not physical beings. As for Maria not being a product of the town? Not directly, certainly. But wasn’t the power of the town being channelled by Mary in the first place?

"I hope everyone reading this is able to see that I've tried to think of every kind of scenario to explain Maria, but all of them seem to contain flaws ... *smashes head on table*"

It is a video game, after all. It's not impervious to having its plot-flaws. Perhaps you're expecting too much from it.

[Conjurer]

Maybe I am, but I feel that it would be just lame and a lazy way out to say: "It's a plot hole" until we've introduced every possible scenario to explain things (which I'm confident hasn't been done yet). Only you, AuraTwilight, and myself have truly contributed to trying to figure this out; we need more people to give their take on things. Hopefully, taking into consideration in what has been discussed already, though.

[AuraTwilight]

I don't think minds "overlap" so to speak, but I think random people around the unreality of the town are manifesting their own elements of their minds (it doesn't matter if things are conjured by different minds, everyone's on the same plane of reality) because we can see the Mark of Samael in the Lakeview Hotel, which indicates that even Alessa's unreality is on the same layer and plane as James's and so on. So, how do we know that when James enters through the door that leads to Angela's living room that it isn't the same case with James leaving the burnt Lakeview Hotel and entering an area similar looking to the room Mary was murdered in? Or how James exists the abyss, ends up behind the Historical Society?

Well, it's not like everyone's literally walking around in the same exact version of the town. With the way it spatially contorts and twists, I interpret it more as everyone on their own "plane" of the Otherworld that simply overlap at points.

But that's getting off topic. The point is that we agree that some parts of people's Otherworlds show up in other people's Otherworlds, creating a sort of "communal" Otherworld. Why can't Maria be a "communal" creation?

I've always thought that Abstract Daddy was Thomas's thought that clings to Angela's house or her own conjuration but she saw it as her father as James sees a monster created from himself or Mary as Maria. That's why can't buy the "overlapping theory", especially since you're saying that it only happens with James and Mary but not James and Angela?

Maria is never a monster until the final boss fight. There's never an instance where someone else perceives her as something other than Maria. She's either there or she's not.

And I'm not saying it DOESN'T happening with James and Angela. I'm saying the fact that James sees he Abstract Daddy monster at ALL iust evidence that their minds are communicating somehow.

And that's my point. If Maria is a physical manifestation, like Abstract Daddy, everyone should be able to see it. But, then again, maybe Laura did see Maria, but instead of seeing her as a monster or what ever Maria truly looks like under that illusion, she saw her as an adult or a nurse (maybe even Rachel) trying to chase her? In fact, that makes me ponder why Laura mentions "But don't tell Rachel", even though she's in Ashfield, many, many miles away. She has no reason to worry about her or James telling her that she took something her locker unless she saw her in the town..

Laura never sees Maria, whether as someone else or otherwise. She only ever sees James, Eddie, and maybe Mary. But Maria doesn't exist for her. However, just because not everyone can see Maria doesn't mean she's any less of a physical manifestation.

The way I see it, Everyone is in their own "plane" of Otherworld that are sideways. Maria's physical existence isn't negated if she doesn't show up in someone else's Otherworld.

For all we know, Person B might not have seen Abstract Daddy at all, even as a monster, but there's symbolism there that even James' subconscious could relate to, thus giving him a partial, warped perception of it.

As for the Rachel thing, I simply figured that Laura just feels bad for stealing the letters. If I did something like that, I'd still say things like "Don't tell Daddy" to an acquaintance when my dad was out of town.

Well, Laura did settle for James instead of Mary in the Leave ending, though...

Yes, as his own person. And a person could argue that Laura was fulfilling Mary's wish of being adopted by the Sunderlands, minus one. Maria, however, is not her own person.

Also, James wanted Mary too.

Yea, but James was willing to settle for less.

Hmm.. That makes sense, I think. It would make even more sense if Maria was actually physical, though.

She IS. Things conjured in Otherworld have a physical, solid existence in Otherworld.

I know that. That's why I'm considering the possibility that Maria might actually be a monster James's perceiving as a woman and is acting accordingly his sub/un/conscious desire. I'm having a very hard time buying that Maria's real physical form is actually... Maria because she transforms into a monster in 3/4 endings and we know for a fact that Maria wasn't originally that monster because the same monster can be percieved as Mary.

That's faulty logic. Just because Maria can transform into a monster doesn't mean her human self isn't her "True" form. She's born in a human shape and maintains a human shape at all times, even when James isn't around, and no one ever perceives her as anything inhuman except for that boss fight. I see no reason for anything to be assumed otherwise.

I disagree because James came to Silent Hill to see if Mary was really alive, waiting for him, not for booty call.

That's the reason his conscious mind rationalizes, but any psychologist will tell you that it's not surprising for the conscious and subconscious minds to contradict.

Except for "pappa", "mamma", and possibly the human avatar of Maria. Scroll up to see my reasoning to why.

Just because something can be perceived multiple ways doesn't mean it's not physically tangible. An example would be a red/gray ball being perceived by a normal,and color-blind person, respectively.

I was; to understand my reasons, scroll up to my explanation of Maria and the final boss.

I disagree with it, since there's no supporting evidence for it except speculation.

If the minds truly overlapped, like you say, we'd be able to see Mr. and Mrs. Orosco. Scroll up to see more of my reasons.

Sure, if they were totally overlapping. I'm only proposing a PARTIAL overlap, where both observers have a few common elements in their picture, but not the same exact picture.

Ernest could've perceived Maria as some other random person, like his wife or something, if he wanted help. Why did he have to see her as Maria..? Unless Maria's physical true form is herself, which is impossible because she turns into a monster at the end, which also can't be, because the final monster wasn't originally Maria... *sigh*

Her true self is Maria as a human. Just because she shapeshifts at the end doesn't mean she shapeshifted before we even met her. As for Ernest, he probably perceived her as Maria because he was only able to help her AS Maria, IE "The You who is not You." and "That man, James."

I wasn't saying she was a "spirit"; I was saying that a part of James's mind is perceiving particular monsters as Maria, and with that, the monster will act accordingly to James's subconscious until killed by something. James will again, come across a random monster and the "Maria illusion" will overlap it. I'm not saying that this is for sure though, since I don't see how Ernest could've perceived a monster as something only James could see.

Occam's Razor supports that it's just Maria, as Maria, resurrecting repeatedly.

I hope everyone reading this is able to see that I've tried to think of every kind of scenario to explain Maria, but all of them seem to contain flaws ... *smashes head on table*

You've tried every scenario except the one I presented, wgich you didn't vocalize any flaws in. Just personal disagreements.

There are countless topics here that discuss Maria being Mary's ideal, rather than James'. That Maria is James' ideal is another popular theory, although I don't subscribe to it myself.

I believe I failed to explain myself properly - I meant that Maria and Mary aren't the same as Alessa and Cheryl, insomuch as they are not physical beings. As for Maria not being a product of the town? Not directly, certainly. But wasn’t the power of the town being channelled by Mary in the first place?

Or Mary was just channeling her own mental strength. In the SH Universe, everyone has the power to create the Otherworld, so long as they have the emotions and thoughts to fuel it. It's a human trait. It's just that a lot of shit seems to go down in the Town of Silent Hill.

[Conjurer]

~Well, it's not like everyone's literally walking around in the same exact version of the town.
Why not?

~The point is that we agree that some parts of people's Otherworlds show up in other people's Otherworlds, creating a sort of "communal" Otherworld. Why can't Maria be a "communal" creation?
Because we should be able to see Angela's father and mother then. And I know you're probably going to say something that relates to both of them perceiving something but... I don't think that's really how it works.

James sees insect monsters (probably Alessa's), why would they be his own? There's no reason for it; it's not like he mentions any where in the games that he's terrified of insects. As I've mentioned before, James comes across the Mark of Samael, indicating that Alessa's unreality is on the same plane as James's. Why should Angela's or Eddie's unreality be on a different plane then? I don't think it's a coincidence that James is able to meet people and see elements relating to themselves. After all, James experiences a nightmarish shift in Brookhaven hospital, later on leaves it, and then sees that the outside is normal.

My point..? I think everyone's on the same plane of reality and certain areas the people were hanging around at are consumed by their own/other people's manifested delusions (only at certain times though). I feel that there's more proof of this then there is of people being "briefly pulled into someone else's parallel universe of reality".

So... with all this, why does Angela's/Thomas's Abstract Daddy have to be something only Angela sees, by herself, in her own little world? I think that Angela seeing this monster as her father is the same as James seeing the flying Mary monster as Maria at the end. James can't see pappa or momma because those are illusions specifically from Angela's mind. Laura can't see Maria because it's something specifically from James's(?) mind.

~There's never an instance where someone else perceives her as something other than Maria. She's either there or she's not.
That's my point. Perceiving someone as nothing still counts as being perceived differently. James sees a woman, Laura sees an empty space of air. But then again, there's nothing that indicates whether or not Laura saw Maria. As I've said before, Laura could've seen Maria as a person chasing her. It would make sense; why else would she be running like a bat out of hell into a small alleyway when we clearly saw her peacefully walking out of Pete's Bowl-o-rama? Unless, as soon as she came out, she saw Maria, and darted away because she was trying to capture her? It's also funny, because Maria had no reason to grab her if she just stood there and talked to her normally, but if Laura perceived her as a nurse or something trying to take her back to St. Jerome's, the monster/thing would act in accordance to her subconscious. Either that, or Laura took no chances and ran away just from the very site of a suspicious adult.

~Yes, as his own person. And a person could argue that Laura was fulfilling Mary's wish of being adopted by the Sunderlands, minus one. Maria, however, is not her own person.[...]Yea, but James was willing to settle for less.
I think you've missed my point. Both James and Laura came to the town for the intent of finding Mary. Both of them are able to settle for something else instead of leaving with her, though. James can leave with Laura or Maria and Laura can Leave with James. I don't think the apartment room could symbolize himself changing Mary for the simple reason that he wanted to find only her in the first place.

~Things conjured in Otherworld have a physical, solid existence in Otherworld.
Except when Angela saw pappa and momma. Maria could be the same, which is why it's hard for me to understand how thoughts from someone else can be put into an illusion (basically into a part of the person's brain that's allowing the person to see this illusion?).

Again, the only reason I have a hard time believing that Maria is a physical person is because she can turn into a monster in which wasn't originally her. Why would Maria be a person through 3/5ths of the game and all of a sudden not be in her own body at the end? It makes no sense, unless Maria's been a body snatcher since the beginning.

~I disagree with it, since there's no supporting evidence for it except speculation.
Besides Maria turning into the monster only in 3 out of 4 of the endings?

~Occam's Razor supports that it's just Maria, as Maria, resurrecting repeatedly.
Then... why didn't Mary spring from her death state? I mean, how do we know that there aren't multiple corpses of Maria lying around Silent Hill like there are multiple corpses of James?

Okay, so I'll try to go over this again just for the sake of simplicity. Maria can not be an illusion because Team Silent says she's Mary's "bodily half", Ernest Baldwin can communicate with her, she can be killed by James and manifested delusions, and it just seems like a very stupid idea for an illusion of Mary to travel into James's brain. She also can't be physical either because she can turn into a monster that she wasn't originally existing as in the first place, unless we want to consider the possibility that the Maria we see in 3/4 of the endings isn't actually the original Maria..? That wouldn't make much sense, though, and would seem kind of pointless..

[AuraTwilight]

Why not?

Because it holds that way in every other SH game. I don't see why SH2 should be different.

Because we should be able to see Angela's father and mother then. And I know you're probably going to say something that relates to both of them perceiving something but... I don't think that's really how it works.

Again, why should we see Angela's parents? You're making it seem like an overlap means we see EVERYTHING, but that's not the case, even in an overlap. James, assuming he had the ability to see the parents, had no psychological reason to do so; no common ground. So he doesn't.

James sees insect monsters (probably Alessa's), why would they be his own? There's no reason for it; it's not like he mentions any where in the games that he's terrified of insects. As I've mentioned before, James comes across the Mark of Samael, indicating that Alessa's unreality is on the same plane as James's. Why should Angela's or Eddie's unreality be on a different plane then? I don't think it's a coincidence that James is able to meet people and see elements relating to themselves. After all, James experiences a nightmarish shift in Brookhaven hospital, later on leaves it, and then sees that the outside is normal.

Or Alessa's Unreality can be on it's own plane and parts of it are popping up in James'. I think you misinterpret my definition of "plane".

Anyway, Alessa's psychic, so her Unreality is probably more prominent in people's Otherworlds. And the Lost Memories does describe the Cockroaches as a "residual power of the town."

My point..? I think everyone's on the same plane of reality and certain areas the people were hanging around at are consumed by their own/other people's manifested delusions (only at certain times though). I feel that there's more proof of this then there is of people being "briefly pulled into someone else's parallel universe of reality".

Several essays on the forum disagree, and provide pretty exceptional arguments.

So... with all this, why does Angela's/Thomas's Abstract Daddy have to be something only Angela sees, by herself, in her own little world? I think that Angela seeing this monster as her father is the same as James seeing the flying Mary monster as Maria at the end. James can't see pappa or momma because those are illusions specifically from Angela's mind. Laura can't see Maria because it's something specifically from James's(?) mind.

Right. But Angela's being attacked by something and James was expecting to see a monster, so his perception provides him with one. Not that the monster is his true form or anything.

That's my point. Perceiving someone as nothing still counts as being perceived differently. James sees a woman, Laura sees an empty space of air. But then again, there's nothing that indicates whether or not Laura saw Maria. As I've said before, Laura could've seen Maria as a person chasing her. It would make sense; why else would she be running like a bat out of hell into a small alleyway when we clearly saw her peacefully walking out of Pete's Bowl-o-rama?

Well it's not like she turns around and spots James while in Maria's company. Maybe she ran after what she thought was a clue towards Mary, or something.

Unless, as soon as she came out, she saw Maria, and darted away because she was trying to capture her? It's also funny, because Maria had no reason to grab her if she just stood there and talked to her normally, but if Laura perceived her as a nurse or something trying to take her back to St. Jerome's, the monster/thing would act in accordance to her subconscious. Either that, or Laura took no chances and ran away just from the very site of a suspicious adult.

Or she never spotted anyone, and she's running for an entirely different reason.

I think you've missed my point. Both James and Laura came to the town for the intent of finding Mary. Both of them are able to settle for something else instead of leaving with her, though. James can leave with Laura or Maria and Laura can Leave with James. I don't think the apartment room could symbolize himself changing Mary for the simple reason that he wanted to find only her in the first place.

Right, but his subconscious IS designing Maria, atleast in part, and the apartment room can reflect that. As for Laura, she may be able to settle for James, but that could be because she met Mary in a similar fashion as James did in the Leave Ending, or maybe it's simply because no one else is around to give her a ride home. Besides, she's already been told that Mary is dead, so she's probably aware her continued searching is fruitless.

Except when Angela saw pappa and momma. Maria could be the same, which is why it's hard for me to understand how thoughts from someone else can be put into an illusion (basically into a part of the person's brain that's allowing the person to see this illusion?).

I see nothing about Angela's parents that indicate that they're not physical existences. Just because James sees them as something else, or not at all, doesn't mean shit. And since Maria is a physical being, so much as can be said in the Otherworld, and when her creation is a fundamentally psychic experience, I see no reason why Mary can't have contributed.

Again, the only reason I have a hard time believing that Maria is a physical person is because she can turn into a monster in which wasn't originally her. Why would Maria be a person through 3/5ths of the game and all of a sudden not be in her own body at the end? It makes no sense, unless Maria's been a body snatcher since the beginning.

Or Maria just changed into a monster both out of her own anger at James and because James realizes her true nature as a product of his own mind, allowing her to be more polymorphic. Plus, just because she's a shapeshifter doesn't mean she's not a physical being.

Besides Maria turning into the monster only in 3 out of 4 of the endings?

I already mentioned that exception. Try again.

Then... why didn't Mary spring from her death state? I mean, how do we know that there aren't multiple corpses of Maria lying around Silent Hill like there are multiple corpses of James?

Well, for one thing, those corpses never WERE James, and if you come back for Maria's bodies, they're not there.

And Mary isn't a delusion, so she can't exactly tell Death to fuck off as easily.

Okay, so I'll try to go over this again just for the sake of simplicity. Maria can not be an illusion because Team Silent says she's Mary's "bodily half",

Agreed.

Ernest Baldwin can communicate with her, she can be killed by James and manifested delusions, and it just seems like a very stupid idea for an illusion of Mary to travel into James's brain.

mmmkay.

She also can't be physical either because she can turn into a monster that she wasn't originally existing as in the first place, unless we want to consider the possibility that the Maria we see in 3/4 of the endings isn't actually the original Maria..?

Or she can GODDAMNED Shapeshift. OOOOOOH. Shifting shapes does not equal "Can't possibly be physical, No Sir Bob."