Meaning behind Save system?

[larcont]

i always have that question, in my opinion, i think that the red reflecting paper its like a connection, cuz its like a mirror, so he see hes face, he see how is it in that moment, to make a remember of what happen just in that moment, we know that all the success in the silent hill word are relationated with the mind of the person whos in it. in conclusion i think that its like a mirror that let he see how degree is he in that moment.

[DarKerry]

Hm... A mirror? Kinda sounds remeniscant of "On the Otherside of the Looking Glass" ^_^-

[valiturus]

windows into reality Damn, why didn't I think of that?!

Because it's hard to think of things with little evidence.

And yes, James sees when you touch yourself.

Hmm, I wouldn't really mind that though. Tee hee!! XD

[joepalos]

I know I'm thread-necromancing a pretty old thread, but I just found it through the forum search.

I've read the whole thread and I think the red square meaning is really important. Quoting Masashi Tsuboyama from Team Silent:

What I mean by "strangeness", is unexplained ocurances that can happen on and off without any real reason.

Examples within the game would be the existence of red square, the circumstances in which you get the handgun...

It has been said by Team Silent (in the Making Of, I think) too that getting the handgun from a shopping cart was kind of a joke about how easy it is to get a gun in the USA. So, if we look at it that way, the red squares could be something "detached" from the story, too. Clearly they're not.

I've read the theories all about how they're a window into the person playing the game. Sure, that makes sense, but just because it makes sense it doesn't mean it's true, in fact it's pretty ridiculous. Just because James says "it's like someone is groping inside my skull" doesn't mean OH WOW IT'S A WINDOW INTO THE PLAYER. And the portrait of the main character in the saving screen is featured in SH3, too.

But the main fact that removes the "window" theory from any list of possible interpretations is the nine-squared save point just before battling both Pyramid Heads. James is about to accept what he did, so there are nine windows into the players' world? Just no. They were even featured in the cover of some edition of SH2, so they (individually and collectively) must hold some kind of important meaning. Also, the Tsuboyama interview etc.

PS: I know there's another thread to discuss the significance of the nine-squared save point, but I want to discuss the significance of single red squares, not that big one. That's why I'm bumping this thread.

[DamienPales]

-Pyramid Head (also known as "red" pyramid thing)
-Save points are also "red," but they're square instead of pyramidal
-James = Pyramid Head
-Pyramid Head kills a lot of stuff
-James kills Mary
-Red is a common symbol for violence, passion, blood, love, etc.

Voila!

[AuraTwilight]

So why are they square? And what the hell does a save point have to do with James killing Mary?

[Soulless-Shadow]

I can see both sides of the arguments, about the squares being mirrors reflecting James' mind or windows to our world. Personally though, I think it might be a window (not mirror) into James' mind, seeing as most of what he sees in Silent Hill is the product of his own subconscious.

I like the idea of it being a window more than a mirror because with a mirror one can just view, whereas with the window one can interact, and similarly things that are on the other side of the window (within James' mind) can interact with this side (or rather, James' side).

The groping/weird feeling he feels in his head could just be himself, searching through his mind, trying to make sense of, and remember everything. After all, despite not consciously remembering the truth at the beginning, he was still kind of confused as to whether or not Mary was really alive, so perhaps he was, at that stage, starting to try to think back (hence the "groping" sensation).

I think the reason why his image is red and slightly distorted when saving is symbolic of his twisted memory, and the metaphoric blood on his hands.

As for the arrangement of the last save point looking like individual windowpanes, I can see that. I'm not 100% sure if that's what it's supposed to look like, but it sort of does.

I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting a point in regards to my theory... Feel free to rip it apart. ^_^ I'm open to other views.

[simeonalo]

Interesting topic...

I read something that went like this:
The color of the save window is red, which represents murder and passion. James's face is on the background, lightly imprinted, which could, with the color, represent James's murder.

Or something along the lines of that...

[Diabolic Dreams]

The red save points are windows from James' mind to ours: We're the ones groping around in his skull; and we're the ones controlling James on his journey. The save screen is of him staring into our reality while we stare calmly back at his.

Exactly what this guy said!

[joepalos]

Yep, there are nine separated windows before the crucial moment of the game, so we can see him exactly nine times! Now, it all makes sense! Please, read the topic before posting or we'll end up reposting the same ideas again and again.

Leaving that aside, I think we should note three things:

1. The fact that they're red could have or could not have some meaning; perhaps they're red so that they're very visible, and making them, I don't know, bright green wouldn't fit in so well with the atmosphere of the game. It could very easily mean something, tho; the fact that Pyramid Head is glowing red the first time you see him couldn't possibly be a coincidence. I think red has something to do with the concept of "truth".

2. Contrary to what has been stated before in this thread, yes, they reflect light, but they could very easily be sheets of paper (or some material). Look at this:



Look at the edges of the square; it's cleary not flat. It adapts to the certainly irregular bottom of the well, like it "sticks" to it or maybe like it's part of it. At first I thought this could be a side effect of poor image compression; but I fired up my game and found that's not the case. The "red square" is flexible, it seems. It also seems to be kind of transparent, right? Which is, again, strange. I remember some of them to be solid, bright, opaque red, like the final nine red squares:



Which brings me to even more doubts about their nature.

3. I thought I remembered them to be perfectly square, so they're not sheets of paper, considering sheets are rectangular. But looking at these nine ones, I don't know anymore. They do look like they could be sheets of paper. The first thought of "sheets of paper" brings me to Mary's real, long-ass letter, which is most likely written in a lot of sheets (I think the audio file of her reading it was 4 or 5 minutes long). However, that doesn't add up, there are 22 of them (not including the nine final ones). Too many.

Just throwing out some ideas here. I know nothing for sure, in fact I'm pretty lost when it comes to the red squares. It's annoying, I think they're the only piece of obvious symbolism in this game I don't understand after all these years.

[AuraTwilight]

I think red has something to do with the concept of "truth".

...Must...resist....Umineko quotes...

3. I thought I remembered them to be perfectly square, so they're not sheets of paper, considering sheets are rectangular. But looking at these nine ones, I don't know anymore. They do look like they could be sheets of paper. The first thought of "sheets of paper" brings me to Mary's real, long-ass letter, which is most likely written in a lot of sheets (I think the audio file of her reading it was 4 or 5 minutes long). However, that doesn't add up, there are 22 of them (not including the nine final ones). Too many.

I think you're on to something, here. Could there just be only nine sheets in all? There's the nine save points before this spot, and then I guess they're "moved" together in the Rubix Cube position we see here? (I still really like that Rubix Cube theory btw).

[Soulless-Shadow]

2. Contrary to what has been stated before in this thread, yes, they reflect light, but they could very easily be sheets of paper (or some material). Look at this:



Look at the edges of the square; it's cleary not flat. It adapts to the certainly irregular bottom of the well, like it "sticks" to it or maybe like it's part of it. At first I thought this could be a side effect of poor image compression; but I fired up my game and found that's not the case. The "red square" is flexible, it seems. It also seems to be kind of transparent, right? Which is, again, strange. I remember some of them to be solid, bright, opaque red, like the final nine red squares:

To me it looks like the square is under the water, making the water ripples the reason the edges don't look straight. The theory about the squares relating to Mary's real letter is interesting though.

[The Adversary]

I just re-read this entire thread and I didn't realize how the entire argument that, if the player is responsible for "groping around in [James'] skull," it would break the fourth wall. Except Heather breaks the fourth wall a couple times in SILENT HILL 3, as I recall.

Funny, that.

Anyway. I found further evidence to support my theory: Heather says essentially the same thing in SILENT HILL 3 in Lakeside Amusement Park.



"It still makes me feel creepy, though. Like someone peekin' into my brain. . ."

And, of course, the image of the save screen is Heather's face, just like James, staring back at you.

[Jonipoon]

The scene where Heather breaks the fourth wall was originally only achievable if you had a save slot of SH2 saved on your console, so I’m not sure if it’s technically ”canon” in that sense. I took it as a joke scene made to please fans, not part of the actual game. I mean if every joke scene in the series was canon it’d be very.... confusing, to say the least.

[The Adversary]

Well, breaking the fourth wall became a conversation in another thread, regarding whether Eddie does when he’s talking to James and “goes nuts.”

Also, pretty sure that scene is always available. The SILENT HILL 2 save comment is in regards to her mailbox, where there are no letters from any dead wives or anything, as I recall.

This was my 19,900th post.

[Jonipoon]

There are plenty of scenes throughout the series where characters talk to themselves when nobody else is around, but that's pretty typical for most video games and doesn't really mean they're actually breaking the fourth wall. In Eddie's case, his crazy monologue near the end just sounds like he's talking to himself. Otherwise by that logic, isn't Gollum's crazy talk in The Two Towers also a 4th wall break? Don't think so.

But no, the bathroom stall joke scene wasn't available on the original PS2 version of SH3 unless you had a save file of SH2 on your memory card. It was later included in the Silent Hill HD Collection. The PC version I don't know.

[The Adversary]

That's not what I'm talking about, though. The conversation was about whether Eddie is talking to the player, us, because the camera goes to a first person view.

I'd say he's definitely not and that it's just a cinematic choice. Every other character in the game, besides Laura, has the same effect at some point: Maria behind the bars and Angela on the staircase.

Regardless, Heather explicitly states looking at the Halo of the Sun makes her feel "like someone [is] peekin' into [her] brain," just like the red squares for James.

[Jonipoon]

Yeah, I know. I just don't think the 4th wall breaks are actual 4th wall breaks, except for the toilet scene which is an Easter egg and not part of the main game. The problem with video games in general is that due to their interactive nature, they almost always involve breaking the fourth wall by requesting the player's participation in some way or form. Like for example when Henry says "There's something in the toilet, should I pick it up?" he's technically asking the player a direct question but it's not breaking the fourth wall IMO - in any other medium however it would be.

Besides, the "peeking into the brain" thing doesn't really fit Heather's story and feels more like another nod to SH2. Considering SH3 is the most derivative game in the original series, this isn't that surprising either.

[alone in the town]

What if the red square is the letter?

And, you have nine of them at the end, because that's the last chance to save the game before we see and hear the full letter, in its entirety? What if the full letter is a little more than 8.5 times as long (77 lines) as the abridged and possibly fake version we carry around the whole time (9)?

These red pieces of paper he sees are him periodically thinking about or remembering the letter on his own, in between events and encounters. You can make him think about it even more by checking the letter in the inventory. Like said letter, it is up to the player whether or not James interacts with the red squares, or ignores them.

I don't know how thoroughly people have decoded the ending algorithm, but it wouldn't surprise me if 'excessive' saving might tilt the game away from getting In Water. Like, for example, if you save at the same save point more than one time, that reads as cautious and caring about self-preservation, but if you blow through without saving very often, it reads as reckless and unconcerned.

[The Adversary]

>the "peeking into the brain" thing doesn't really fit Heather's story and feels more like another nod to SH2<
Eh, I don't think so. It would make more sense to have a save system similar to Harry's if that were the case. But, no, the save screen itself is of Heather, just like James, staring into the player, with a clear reference to someone groping, or in this case peeking, into her skull.

>What if the red square is the letter?<
That's been posited before, but, I dunno about that either. I mean, the letter isn't a square piece of paper, it's a regular 8.5" x 11".