So which ending is canon?

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Kompwars
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So which ending is canon?

Post by Kompwars »

I heard that konami officially said cybil is dead, so im thinking the good ending is canon. But i refuse to believe that the best ending isn't canon :P
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by alone in the town »

"GOOD": The only ending that can possibly be true.

It'll revive the argument, because some people really want GOOD+ to be canon in spite of the soaring mountain of proof showing otherwise, but, well, too goddamn bad. It's not. <3
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by Typographenia »

Ambulance Ending.


I always pretend Good+, but Good definitely appears to be the "canon" ending.
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R08813
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by R08813 »

Silent Hill Homecoming confirmed Cybil's disappearance, which allows some players to assume Cybil died in Silent Hill 1. I am not aware of any official material that confirms Cybil's death.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by alone in the town »

Homecoming is a rather official confirmation of her death, abrogating any plausible hypothses supporting Good+. Not that any ever existed beforehand, this was just confirming what should be blatantly obvious to anybody.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by Aerith Gainsborough »

AITT, a few others, and myself all discussed this in another forum and we agreed on the Good Ending as the only canon ending unless
PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:
Cybil was found alive and such.
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Tillerman
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by Tillerman »

There's some pretty strong arguments for the good ending being canon, but nothing set in stone. So feel free to believe what you want.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by Soulless-Shadow »

alone in the town wrote:"GOOD": The only ending that can possibly be true.

It'll revive the argument, because some people really want GOOD+ to be canon in spite of the soaring mountain of proof showing otherwise, but, well, too goddamn bad. It's not. <3
As much as I liked Cybil, there's just no way one can deny your thread without coming across as an illogical nut with an extensive collection of tinfoil hats. Poor Cybil. :(
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by alone in the town »

Tillerman wrote:There's some pretty strong arguments for the good ending being canon, but nothing set in stone. So feel free to believe what you want.
There are zero strong arguments for any other ending. There aren't even any weak arguments. Every hypothesis to the contrary suffers from fatal, easily-exploitable flaws.

But, sure, it is no crime to be wrong. The church of Robot Alien Dahlia will never go extinct.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by The Adversary »

I really should write a comprehensive paper: "Dahlia Gillespie Is A Robot; or, Cyborgs And The Implication Of Robotics In SILENT HILL."
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by Tillerman »

alone in the town wrote:There are zero strong arguments for any other ending. There aren't even any weak arguments. Every hypothesis to the contrary suffers from fatal, easily-exploitable flaws.

But, sure, it is no crime to be wrong. The church of Robot Alien Dahlia will never go extinct.
So basically, you agree with me. "Hypothesis." It's not set in stone.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by alone in the town »

I am in no way understanding why you'd think I agree with you. The Good ending has been set in stone as the canon ending for eight years. Silent Hill 3 is based upon it. At one point, it could be argued that her fate was left undecided--a stretch at the best of times--but Homecoming took care of that loose thread. Finally taking away that last grasping straw was Homecoming's most important contribution to series' canon.

There are few things in this series more concrete than the Good ending being "the orthodox ending, which is connected to the third game". To say otherwise is to knowingly misinform.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by Tillerman »

I don't really consider Homecoming that important in figuring out canon, though. Let me ask you this, if Cybil had reappeared in Homecoming, would you have reversed your position? Or would you have said that Homecoming was wrong?
alone in the town wrote:There are few things in this series more concrete than the Good ending being "the orthodox ending, which is connected to the third game". To say otherwise is to knowingly misinform.
That's kind of a crazy statement. There's lots of things more concrete, for example, anything we actually *see* happen. Harry's fate after SH3 is not in question. Now that's "concrete." Cybil's fate is not concrete. If someone dies off camera, there's *always* a question. And that's just if we're told they're dead. If we're not told they're dead then all bets are off.

But as is pointed out in the other thread, the Book of Lost Memories does call the Good ending the "orthodox ending, which Silent Hill 3 is based on." That seems pretty conclusive. But as is also pointed out, Hiroyuki Owaku said "Cybil is not involved in Silent Hill 3. What happens to her afterwards is left to the player's imaginations." If she was really meant to be dead, he could have simply said she was dead, but that sounds as if it's meant to be open ended. Which is a contradiction.

Generally I agree that it makes the most sense to think she's dead. But let's not pretend that it's not slightly ambiguous. I don't know why you'd actively strive to take away the ambiguity of Silent Hill, that ruins a lot of the fun!
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by alone in the town »

Tillerman wrote:I don't really consider Homecoming that important in figuring out canon, though. Let me ask you this, if Cybil had reappeared in Homecoming, would you have reversed your position? Or would you have said that Homecoming was wrong?
I would have reversed my position, naturally. Just as I would have if evidence of Cybil's survival came up in an earlier game, just as I will if evidence of her survival comes up in a later game. Though, I will almost certainly find the justification distasteful, because that's more important to my stance than her absence in future games.
alone in the town wrote:That's kind of a crazy statement. There's lots of things more concrete, for example, anything we actually *see* happen. Harry's fate after SH3 is not in question. Now that's "concrete." Cybil's fate is not concrete. If someone dies off camera, there's *always* a question. And that's just if we're told they're dead. If we're not told they're dead then all bets are off.
Cybil doesn't die off-camera. She dies from a lethal dose of Harry Mason, administered by the player.
But as is pointed out in the other thread, the Book of Lost Memories does call the Good ending the "orthodox ending, which Silent Hill 3 is based on." That seems pretty conclusive. But as is also pointed out, Hiroyuki Owaku said "Cybil is not involved in Silent Hill 3. What happens to her afterwards is left to the player's imaginations." If she was really meant to be dead, he could have simply said she was dead, but that sounds as if it's meant to be open ended. Which is a contradiction.
Maybe at one point, but that was before Homecoming erased any plausible explanation for her survival. Wheeler is working with the Brahms PD when these events take place, and according to him, she disappeared completely. All they found was her bike. This is where the Good+ acolytes go "maybe she went into hiding to escape The Order", which is completely ludicrous, because Harry Mason, a much likelier target for vengeance, doesn't go into hiding for a full five years, which happens only after someone tries to kill him, and even then, all he does is move to a different city. That does not jive with Cybil going into hiding so soon that she never even reports back to her precinct and so deep that no trace of her is ever found again, even two decades later. This is the game modifying Owaku's quote to say "Cybil is not involved in Silent Hill 3, and this is why".

Then again, that quote doesn't state that Good+ is the canon ending, so it doesn't contradict anything. Players can imagine anything they want, and the player can very well get a different outcome than Good. The player's imagination, however, doesn't dictate series canon.
Generally I agree that it makes the most sense to think she's dead. But let's not pretend that it's not slightly ambiguous. I don't know why you'd actively strive to take away the ambiguity of Silent Hill, that ruins a lot of the fun!
I'm not taking away any ambiguity because there is none to take away except what people with a shaky grasp of logic invented for their own pleasure. It's not like, say, Silent Hill 2, in which the outcome is completely open-ended, not just because Word of God says so, not just because no future game or literature has ever contradicted this, but because it's obvious just by paying attention that every scenario is logical. You do not need a guide or foreknowledge to get any of the endings. It's possible to get them all organically. This is impossible with the + endings of the first game unless you play games in a way that completely defies rational behavior.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by Tillerman »

Fair enough, but let's just say that when it comes to discussing canon, I put Homecoming and Origins on a separate shelf.
alone in the town wrote:Then again, that quote doesn't state that Good+ is the canon ending, so it doesn't contradict anything. Players can imagine anything they want, and the player can very well get a different outcome than Good. The player's imagination, however, doesn't dictate series canon.
Here's where I disagree. The quote doesn't need to state that the Good+ ending is canon in order to be a contradiction. What the quote does explicitly say is "What happens to her afterwards is left to the player's imaginations." If Cybil is meant to be canonically dead, then it would be wrong to say her fate is left up to "the player's imagination." So no matter how you look at it, this quote is a contradiction. To see it any other way, would require in your words "a shaky grasp of logic."
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by alone in the town »

A shaky grasp of logic is required for one to extrapolate that quote into anything meaningful. The same book implies that the UFO endings might be canon, and this statement exists in that same category. If you take it seriously, then nothing in the rest of the book has any meaning.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by Tillerman »

alone in the town wrote:A shaky grasp of logic is required for one to extrapolate that quote into anything meaningful. The same book implies that the UFO endings might be canon, and this statement exists in that same category. If you take it seriously, then nothing in the rest of the book has any meaning.
Fine. But you can't embrace the statement you like, that the Good ending is the orthodox ending, and turn around and pretend like the statement you don't like doesn't exist. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

They both exist and they contradict each other. What does this mean? Quite plainly, that the creators are a little confused about whether Cybil is supposed to be dead or not. That's what I call ambiguity, my friend.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by The Adversary »

I take the comment "What happens to [Cybil] afterwards is left to players' imaginations" as meaning "What happens to Cybil while in the reverse side is left to players' imaginations," as in after she's killed, because Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle emphasizes the concept of rebirth and metempsychosis especially in regards to SILENT HILL 3.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by Tillerman »

The Adversary wrote:I take the comment "What happens to [Cybil] afterwards is left to players' imaginations" as meaning "What happens to Cybil while in the reverse side is left to players' imaginations," as in after she's killed, because Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle emphasizes the concept of rebirth and metempsychosis especially in regards to SILENT HILL 3.
Your interpretation is strange. You seem to be completely ignoring the context of the quote. Remember, the quote comes immedietly after this: "In the Good+ ending of Silent Hill, Harry and Cybil escape the town together. Although one could interpret this in such a way as to envision a connection between the two of them, Cybil doesn't appear in Silent Hill 3..." The quote appears immedietly after that; it is clearly referencing the Good+ ending, and it is clearly an answer regarding Cybil's ultimate fate. There's no other logical way to interpret it.
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Re: So which ending is canon?

Post by AuraTwilight »

This is stupid. To argue that Cybil is alive is to argue that Team Silent are shitty storytellers. Is that the road you want to go down?
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