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Subway Guard
 Post subject: Douglas' investigation(spoilers)
     
         
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Missing since: 16 Nov 2005
Notes left: 1748
Last seen at: Southeast of Greenwich...somewhere sandy.
Last night I watched a friend kill missionary in SH3 and then watched
the cut scene where Douglas is driving Heather to Silent Hill and the
conversation that insues. I had seen this part many times before
when I had gone through the game but something caught my
attention this time. Douglas claims to have been to Silent Hill
once before in a missing persons investigation. The lights then came
on. He must have been talking either about James or Mary. Could
be talking about Angela or Eddie too though I think not.

I have seen a few posts on what is the real ending to SH2 and there
has been nothing but great dispute over the matter. Many say The Rebirth,
many say the "Water" and so on(don't think that I have seen anyone claim the
dog ending as the real one :lol: )

O.K so is Douglas refering to James or Mary? If it was Mary then that would
give all endings a highlight minus the Maria and Dog ending. But from what I understand
Mary did not die in Silent hill. If this is so then why would Douglas come looking for
Mary there unless there was evidence that

[spoiler]James had taken her body there in the trunk of his car.

Now maybe Douglas was looking for James. If so I will rule out the Leave ending
and the Maria ending for my theory and discovery hypothesis.

Rebirth: James has ressurected Mary or something like her and has relocated
somewhere else under a different name. If it was Frank Sunderland(James Father
from SH4) that hired Douglas than oviously James had not contacted his father.
I have seen this before,"Would you bring a corpse over to your parents house and
say hi Dad?", I think not. It may also have been a Douglas solo mission though
from what I recall he is a private detective, and if so he would go to Silent Hill only
if hired.

Water: The great dispute. Screeching tire sounds, wall in the way of driving into the lake.
Many opinions fly in these regards. Some have this shit down to a mere science. All that I
am doing here is proving info and theory. I do not support the Water ending though here
are some interesting facts. If Douglas was hired to find James by Frank then maybe James
did commit suicide, or maybe he has made a new life elsewhere as stated earlier. If Douglas
was worth anything as a detective and if Dan Birlew of BradyGames stragety guides is right
(though what he states is merely opinion in my own) then Douglas would have been able
to prove that James had commited suicide. In the SH4 BradyGames Official Stragety Guide
by Dan Birlew there is an insert that says," If you want to find out the real fate of James
Sunderland, refer to the picture over Henrys' bed"(more of a recap than actual wfw statement.)
If you look over Henrys' bed in SH4 then you see a picture of deep tire tracks that lead out into
the lake. The only problem is that it is not where James had parked his car. It only could
have worked if James had moved his car which i find unlikely.
The reason that I wrote about all of this is that if Douglas was looking for James,
(which I think is the case)then that would validate the Rebirth or possibly the Water ending.
If this theory be true, then is Douglas looking for James or Mary. And if he is looking for
James is it because James killed himself, or has relocated?
Just bringing this up as a possibility and theory. Any input or opinion with some
kind of factual evidence on the matter would be greatly appriciated. Thanks
[/spoiler]

_________________
"No more soul to sell, 31 years and on my way to Hell".


Last edited by emptimass on 15 Nov 2007, edited 1 time in total.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
It's up to you why Douglas was looking for James--assuming you believe it to be him. You essentially answered all of your own questions in your post: it's all up to interpretation because there simply isn't enough to go on to prove who Douglas was looking for.

Keep in mind though: Douglas is a pretty good investigator. He found Heather. From the information he was given, she's known by the name's Alessa, Cheryl & Heather; she's twenty-four years old, but looks seventeen; and was born in Silent Hill. That's essentially it, and he managed to find her.

That said, had James committed suicide by driving into the lake, the very first place any investigator would look--if hired by Frank, his father, whose told others that his "son & daughter-in-law disappeared in Silent Hill a few years back", thus knowing where to look--is Silent Hill. So, if Douglas went to Silent Hill shortly after their disappearance, he would've spotted the tire marks at the Overlook, as well as the massive hole & path made by James' car on the way down to Toluca Lake.

In doing so, he'd've found the car & their bodies, thus negating his rhetoric: ...but I never did find'em. (And yes, it is intended to be I never did find'em, not I never did find him--in the Japanese script, it doesn't denote either gender, so it could be either male or female.)

Taking that into consideration, if you believe it to be James that Douglas is looking for, it dismisses the In Water ending--which we should all know by now that I hold no faith in. Had James revived Mary, it's possible that he either a) never returned home, and moved somewhere else entirely, where he wouldn't be found, or b) returned home because no one knew that Mary had passed away. If that's the case, then Frank never would've hired Douglas to go looking for his not-missing son & daughter-in-law.

See what I'm saying? Too many possibilities.

Now, personally: I had believed it was Eddie Dombrowski for a long time. He's dead. He died in the Abyss--a place that Douglas can't get to by any conventional means. Thus: his body would never be found. However, we don't know anything about Eddie's family, or if there's anyone out there who'd bother to find him, save the police--afterall: he killed a dog & wounded a football player. That said, the police wouldn't hire a detective to find him; they'd just go after him.

Angela, on the other-hand, has a family: she has a mother still--and possibly a brother (though I believe he's dead too). Mrs. Orosco probably would like to know what happened to her daughter, and whether or not she's still alive. And, considering the last time she's seen alive is also in the Abyss, she's not going to be found by conventional means either.

Thus: They've both disappeared in Silent Hill, and Douglas "...never could find'em," no matter how hard he looked.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 04 Jun 2005
Notes left: 100
Last seen at: england
no that stuff doesn't disprove the in water ending. I am quoting a book you find in the game here.
'It may seem like a typical ghost story.' 'but in this case the legned is TRUE.' 'the little Baroness, a ship filled with tourists, failed to return to port.' 'sunk for some reason.' ' Despite EXTENSIVE police search, not a single fragment of the ship nor any of the 14 bodies of passengers or crew has ever been recovered to this day.'

A massive ship full of passengers and crew well charted sinks and can't be found after extensive police searchs. not a single fragment. And your saying that douglas would be able to find a small car with two people in it in the middle of this massive lake! The lake swallows things up so even if he saw tyre marks he wouldnt be able to find the car itself at the bottom of the lake.

And as for the tyre marks how would he know they come from james car they could have come from any car!! they probally would have gone by the time douglas was there anyway.

An i just watched the in water ending about 2 minutes ago. Theres the sound of him driving for a few seconds then thats it! No crashing through a barrier!! no Splashing into the water!! How do you know he even crashed through a barrier. Theres no telling how longer he kept driving after the sounds ended maybe he drove to a point where there was no barrier in the way then drove down from there!

He coulkd be referreing to james as the missing person and it could still mean that the in water ending was the true ending! I'm not saying it is the in water ending although i believe it is. It could still be any ending. But that doesn't dissprove the in water ending not by a long way backs it up in my opinion.

_________________
scatlovers.com a site dedicated to the artful eating of poo


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=738
Discuss'd.

>find a small car with two people in it in the middle of this massive lake!
James' car could never make it to the middle of the lake. Cars can't fly. It'd hit the water and stop after about ten feet.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 04 Jun 2005
Notes left: 100
Last seen at: england
the Adversary wrote:
>http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=738
Discuss'd.

>find a small car with two people in it in the middle of this massive lake!
James' car could never make it to the middle of the lake. Cars can't fly. It'd hit the water and stop after about ten feet.


if he drove from higher ground into a deeper part of the lake current from the lake could carry the car. and thats part of the mystery of the lake it swallows things up so to say.

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scatlovers.com a site dedicated to the artful eating of poo


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
Read the link given. James gets in the car, starts it, puts it in drive, and floors it. From where he's parked at the Overlook, he would've hit the wall immediately. He didn't drive anywhere else to "look for a better spot."

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
The lake isn't massive, either. Most lakes aren't. A car and two corpses aren't like needles in a haystack, they kind of you know, stand out.

_________________
I'm not dead yet, dammit.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 04 Jun 2005
Notes left: 100
Last seen at: england
actually i'm listening to it right now ( i have it downloaded) and he starts the car you hear a slow hum of the enigine and what sounds like him turninng the car around then he floors it. I've just counted and after he starts the car it's ten seconds before he floors it and during that time you can hear the car turning. Have a listen yourself. And as i've said before theres no telling how long he was driving after the sounds end. In dramatic style you wouldn't just plonk off the edge straight away you build up speed drive for a bit then go out in style. and yeah there would be gaps with no fencing or barrier.

and as for the bodys two bodies don't stand out. what about the 14 plus bodies and a great hulking ship that were never found you'd think they'd stick out

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2005
Notes left: 41
Oh.My.God.


Let it go. The point of the In Water ending is not whether it logical from where he is parked at the beginning of the game, it's that he was so stricken with grief and guilt, that he drove his car into the lake with his wife's body to kill himself. All the endings are meant to be possibilities and are believed in, one or the other, by choice.

Why couldn't James have moved the car? He walked all the way back to it to retrieve Mary's body in the first place for the Rebirth, and then had to walk all the way back to the the row boat to make a his way slowly to this island in the middle of the lake, from this journey we only see the end anyways. Why couldn't we hear only the end of his drive to another spot? He could have easily turned off the car to reconsider what he was about to do, and the restarted it where the ending starts.

I find that James killing himself over grief and guilt a far more plausible ending that him "ressurrecting" her using cult rituals and other odd tools, considering how broken up he was after finding out he killed her.

_________________
love walked alone
the rocks cut her tender feet,
and the brambles tore her fair limbs.
there came a companion to her,
but, alas, he was no help,
for his name was heart's pain.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>considering how broken up he was after finding out he killed her.
Precisely why he'd go to any length to bring her back. I’d do anything if I could be with her again.

>He walked all the way back to it to retrieve Mary's body
No. He walked from Lakeview Hotel to the boat he came in on, then rowed south to the Overlook--where the boat launch is at--then took her body back to the boat.

>two bodies don't stand out.
A car does. A boat, however, on a foggy night, in the middle of the lake, in the year 1939, would be much more difficult to find than a car that couldn't make it more than ten feet into the lake.

Take it to another topic if you want, but the Simple Truth is that James wasn't in Silent Hill to kill himself.

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This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2005
Notes left: 41
I'd do anything if I could be with her again


Death seems like the more logical decision to me.
Bottom line, when he got to Silent Hill, he didn't know he had killed Mary. When he found out he did, he seemed pretty grief struck to me, and someone as emotionally shot as him having to deal with Mary's moodswings, suicide would be choice numero uno. He didn't come to Silent Hill to find mystical items to ressurrect his murdured wife any more than he did to kill himself. He came there looking for answers, and when he found them, a ritual he had no knowledge of didn't look like what he wanted to do. Neither did leaving with a girl he'd seen die more than once, leaving with a little brat that hated him, getting abducted by aliens, or petting a dog. He was psycologically unstable after convincing himself that his wife had been dead for 3 years and sent him a letter that she was waiting for him in their "special place." Seriously, how can you be so rock solid in the Rebirth ending when it doesn't fit with what's happening. It just seems like an extra ending much like the Dog Ending or UFO.

_________________
love walked alone
the rocks cut her tender feet,
and the brambles tore her fair limbs.
there came a companion to her,
but, alas, he was no help,
for his name was heart's pain.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2005
Notes left: 1378
Last seen at: Philadelphia
"You've given me so much and
I haven't been able to return
a single thing.

That's why I want you to live
for yourself now.
Do what's best for you, James."

That's from Mary's letter. I'd like to think James respected Marys last wishes.

_________________
Back off man, I'm a scientist.
Image


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2005
Notes left: 41
heh that letter was so damn long. must've missed that. but did he get the entire letter before the end of the game when the letter scrolls by and Mary is reading it?

_________________
love walked alone
the rocks cut her tender feet,
and the brambles tore her fair limbs.
there came a companion to her,
but, alas, he was no help,
for his name was heart's pain.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>suicide would be choice numero uno.
If you're a coward. Which James is not.

>It just seems like an extra ending much like the Dog Ending or UFO.
Because the Dog & UFO endings are jokes. The Rebirth ending is the most serious of the six.

>how can you be so rock solid in the Rebirth ending when it doesn't fit
Because it fits perfectly given what James does: all he wants is to be with Mary again. If the possibility arose, were palpable & available, I'd do the same thing for a loved one--if I were equally "grief stricken" and "emotionally shot" as he was. James isn't ready to quit; he's ready to do whatever it takes, as he demonstrates throughout the course of the game.

If he didn't love Mary, if he wasn't willing to do anything to be with her again, he would've left as soon as he saw the first monster; or he would've killed himself immediately after Mary died.

>did he get the entire letter before the end of the game
No. It's the last thing he reads before he makes his decision in what to do--a decision that, if you consider In Water ending "true," goes against everything James had worked for.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 22 Jun 2005
Notes left: 41
I have a feeling that you will never back down, seeing the immensely lengthy argument with Glazarus you've had over this before, so I won't go down this road. I'll just end it with you have convincing arguments, and I respect your knowledge of the game. But there is substantial evidence for both endings, and I simply like the In Water a bit better, I'll just stick to that one and say Good Day :)

_________________
love walked alone
the rocks cut her tender feet,
and the brambles tore her fair limbs.
there came a companion to her,
but, alas, he was no help,
for his name was heart's pain.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>But there is substantial evidence for both endings
If there were evidence for the In Water ending, I wouldn't so adamantly debate against it--I'd simply say: There's a possibility for either one.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 04 Jun 2005
Notes left: 100
Last seen at: england
the Adversary wrote:
>considering how broken up he was after finding out he killed her.
Precisely why he'd go to any length to bring her back. I’d do anything if I could be with her again.

>He walked all the way back to it to retrieve Mary's body
No. He walked from Lakeview Hotel to the boat he came in on, then rowed south to the Overlook--where the boat launch is at--then took her body back to the boat.

>two bodies don't stand out.
A car does. A boat, however, on a foggy night, in the middle of the lake, in the year 1939, would be much more difficult to find than a car that couldn't make it more than ten feet into the lake.

Take it to another topic if you want, but the Simple Truth is that James wasn't in Silent Hill to kill himself.



how do you know he weren't there to kill himself? Everything in this world is a creation of James subconcious well known fact. All the writings on walls, monsters everything in James head being manifested. One piece of writing on a wall confirmed in water to me. In bar neelys in the otherworld theres writing on the wall, obviousley from James mind cause everything is! It says something like ‘ james if you really want to see mary you should just die (kill yourself? Can’t remember which it says), But you might not be going the same place as her’ Something around those lines. To me that is James sub concious telling himself he should kill himslef (if you get me) but at that point unsure wether he’ll end up were mary is and where james will go (heaven/hell etc). And in the end when James comes round to the truth He realises it doesn’t matter he has to be with Mary he can’t live without her so he kills himself. Deep down he knows what he did. I read this from lost book of mems. Pyramid head keeps killing maria to try and wake james up to the truth that he killed mary. The writing in bar neely I see as the same thing his sub concious deep down that knows the truth telling himself he should die to see mary but he on the surface doesn’t understand at that point. And you don't have to be a coward to kill yourself just so madly in love that you can't live without the other person.

_________________
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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
There are topics in the Silent Hill 2 section that discuss what you're asking. Go there and find them, please.

_________________
I'm not dead yet, dammit.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 06 Mar 2005
Notes left: 537
Last seen at: Somewhere?
1. Lake Toluca makes things vanish. An entire boat of tourists just disappeared one day, no wreckage, no bodies. If someone were to drive say, a car, into the lake, it probably would never be found, and the evidence would be washed away.

2. Silent Hill also seems to cover tracks nicely. Regardless of what ending James went with, the town probably was in such a state that there would be no evidence he ever even existed. Anyone who goes to Silent Hill seems to vanish...

James did pretty much vanish, this we know. In SH4 someone mentions how the Superintendent Sunderland had a Son and Daughter-In-Law that went missing in Silent Hill.

[spoiler]As far as James' Family knew, Mary was alive up to a few days before he killed her. So, old man Sunderland has no idea Mary is dead, and as far as he knows both are missing. Remember, JAMES was lying about it being years since Mary died. She was alive up to about a few days ago, it's just his own screwed up mind that created that lie, in addition to the letter, and nearly everything else[/spoiler]

So based on these facts, the "Persons" Douglas was searching for could and probably very well is James and Mary. Of course, Team Silent left it open, so if they suddenly decided OH DOUGLAS WAS SEARCHING FOR SOMEONE ELSE, they could do so at the drop of a hat. That's what's known as writing yourself into a corner. Why throw away an opportunity for a good Silent Hill sidestory? After all, they made a game out of a f'ing note in SH2 with Sullivan...

What would have cinched this is if Superintendent Sundreland stated "I even sent a Private Eye to find them." Then we would know without a doubt that the statement Douglas made and Sunderlands missing Son and Daughter-In-Law are directly related.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19401
Last seen at: #lfk
>Everything in this world is a creation of James subconcious well known fact.
Wrong.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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