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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: "The me Here & Now that Sought Life."
     
         
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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EDIT** Please note that this has spoilers for the whole series. Avoid like hell if you haven't played one of the games.

The Me Here and Now That Sought Life
by Krist.


Here is my statement: A powerful emotion is key in order to bring God's birth, and ensure Her rebirth. You see this in God's initial birth, the birth of her in SH1, the birth of her in SH3, and her potential birth in SH4.

How do you birth a God? According to The Order's doctrine, “a man offered a serpent to the sun, and prayed for salvation. A woman offered a reed to the sun, and asked for joy.” Let us take these two strong emotions, salvation and joy, and place them into the two strongest examples of God's birth shown to us in the series.

In the first game I believe there is an undercurrent of tension and a struggle between Alessa and Cheryl. Cheryl has been whisked away from her father and appears to him only as a ghostly specter, leading him through the fog of the town, in a disembodied voice calling out to him for help, or by leaving clues as to where he might find her and how he might instigate the Eclipse needed to cross over to the Otherside. The first image of Cheryl you see in the regular game mode is her drifting through the fog, ignoring her father's pleas. Secondly, you find pages of her sketchbook in the same alley she apparently disappeared down, telling Harry to go TO SCHOOL. The second clue is likewise on her sketchbook paper, talking about the Keys to the Eclipse, which leads Harry to cross over to the Otherside and make it to Midwich.

So what does this have to do with joy? Well, Cheryl's joy was her father, the only parent she really knew. He was a loving, if somewhat doting, parent, and would do anything to find her and keep her safe – Cheryl, as one half of Alessa, would certainly want to hold on like hell to her only source of solace and protection. Alessa only wished for death, to end her life and the slightest possibility of God being born – but what if Cheryl's wish was to live again? God would seize upon this wish and bam, pops out a baby with the fetus of her inside of it to give to Harry.

The theme of salvation is prevalent in SH3, primarily in Claudia's actions. She did some terrible things, things that ushering in Paradise certainly couldn't cancel out, but ultimately her goal was to save people, to give them peace and free them from pain and heartache. Claudia's prayer, her desire, was for salvation (she even says this word in the ending you get if you attack her in the Church).So, when Heather romperstomps on God's skull, turns to walk away, and then stops, turns back... what does she see? Personally I think she sees God offering another version of itself to her. How? By seizing on Claudia's wish for salvation.

In SH4's Mother ending, Henry's apartment has not been fully cleansed of the hauntings and Eileen says, “Guess I can go back to South Ashfield Heights now.” We are shown a shot of Henry's apartment all tainted and grimy – clearly signifying doom and bad stuff for our main characters. So why is it called the Mother ending? Well, by the lingering presence of Walter's emotions, as well as Eileen's foolish desire to return back to her home – perhaps she is called back there? – the Mother can be brought back – in the Mother Reborn. Victim 20121. Eileen Galvin.

Also interesting to note that it says “feeling pity for the sadness that had overrun the earth, God was born from those two people.” So, did God feel this pity? Not necessarily, since God couldn't feel emotion if it wasn't born: this leaves it down to the two people responsible for creating her, the Mother and the Father. Their pity was what allowed God to be born – Claudia's pity, and desire for salvation, allowed its possible rebirth in SH3, and Cheryl's prayer for joy was what allowed her to be reborn at the end of SH1. I think Harry got it wrong when he said that Alessa was the one who prayed for the girl's return – Cheryl herself wanted to return. Alessa only wanted to destroy herself, as we know from the memo left at the end of the the Memory of Alessa boss fight. Harry also makes note of that girl's “conscious resistance” - that girl refers to Cheryl, though he never says her name in the letter he leaves for Heather.

When Heather examines the painting of St. Alessa in the church, she says “The me that wanted death and disappeared with God [...] and the me here and now that sought life.” I believe she is talking about Cheryl's desire for life, to be with Harry again – and Alessa was dragged down into the abyss with God. So though Cheryl might only be half of Alessa, it would seem, if you ascribe to this theory, that she won out in the end – much to Alessa's chagrin and horror.

I want to make it clear that I don't think Cheryl gave the baby to Harry at the game's end in SH1 – God gave Herself to him, but she did so by seizing Cheryl's “prayer” for joy. If Cheryl doesn't overpower Alessa, well, take a look at the endings where the baby does not appear: God disappears, Cheryl isn't reborn... and that, as they say, it that. The only thing that troubles me is what allows for Cheryl to win out over Alessa: the only way to get the new baby at the end of SH1 is to save Kaufmann, to see the use of the Aglaophotis, and to eject the Incubus from the Holy Woman. Could this separation perhaps play an important part that I'm not seeing?


Edited for a cleaner version, and spelling errors.

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Last edited by Mis Krist. on 13 Jun 2007, edited 4 times in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Wow, that was amazing. Since it's on my mind, couldn't this connect as a THEME to MisterGrey's theory of Eros/Thanatos, with Eros having an innate advantage/victory over it's counterpart? If so, that pretty much covers the first three games right there, and I'm sure it could also carry over to like....Walter or something.

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Historical Society Historian
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Y'know, that's a good point: Apparently, Eros/Thanatos is an overlapping theme, if what you say holds true.

You could say Eros/Thanatos applies to little Walter and big Walter, if one so desired - the desire to find the mother, and keeping the Mother Reborn safe, as opposed to completely annihilating everything in existence. Ah, Walter...

Thanks. I was mostly rambling throughout it - I'm glad you understood it and enjoyed.

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Historical Society Historian
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Yes, it was a pretty kickass essay-thing. I love reading your posts and stuff. I have no doubt the theme will probably carry on to SH0 and SH5.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Hope House Careworker
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I pretty much agree with everything you've written, I do believe that Cheryl was trying to break free from Alessa, to reach Harry, pretty much throughout the whole game, I don't think we're giving Heather enough credit though, with the comment about the her that wanted to die and the her that wanted to survive. At this point in the game, memories were surely coming back to her, and while there is a possibility she was just going off of what was written in her dad's journal, I like to think that she actually has some awareness of what was going on back then.

When the Holy Woman [or whatever the heck you call her] showed up, it was not only in Dahlia's vision of God, but I also believe it WAS Alessa, not just someone who looked like her, I don't think the body just dissapeared when God was made, and when the aglaophotis [sp?] was used, the God was expelled from her body, instead looking like the creature Alessa envisioned God to be. I don't think the body dissapeared because it was a... transformation, or whatever, I think it dissapeared because it was the PSX. It was an old console, and a lot of pretty flashes and crazy stuff happened during that battle. We really can't take everything we see for granted because it was such an old console.

And if Cheryl did retain some consiousness, enough to break through to Harry at some points in the game, isn't it also possible, that with the rest of her power she was able to give Harry the child? Not Alessa as a whole, just the part that represented Cheryl? I mean, it was pretty crappy luck that that crazy bitch Claudia showed up and made the God stir in Heather, Alessa/Cheryl whoever, perhaps thought that the cult was done for, and they wouldn't be able to find Harry/Heather again. It's not too far-fetched considering the game has people splitting into multiple entities and small children summoning monsters and crap on a whim [seemingly.]

Meh, that was a huge ramble, and no one's probably going to agree with it anyway. :x

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Just one little thing to nitpick: you've got the images of who sees god as what backwards, dear :) Dahlia sees God as the incubus that comes out of the Holy Woman in White, the latter of which is Alessa's idea of god. But moving on!

It wasn't necessarily crappy luck that Claudia found Heather - she had been actively searching for her for a little while, even going so far as to enlist the help of Douglas to make it 'official.' The cult seems to have wanted to track her down sooner, too, considering that Harry killed one of the crazy cult people that came after he and his daughter, thus forcing them to change their names. I think, somewhat subconsciously, that something inside Heather would have to be suspicious of that, as well as Douglas and Claudia's words: sure, she doesn't understand what they're saying, but it obviously shifts something inside her. The mere mention of the word God makes her writhe in agony.

I give Heather's memory full credit, but I also know that when it comes to her father, her emotions are bound to be muddled. Not that I'm suggesting she isn't remembering things exactly, only that... well, I'm not sure what I'm saying, really.

I do think that we are in somewhat of an agreement regarding Cheryl's powers and the possibility of her desire to be with her father inspiring God to bestow the baby to Harry - "Sure, you can see your dad again. But at a price." What throws this for a loop, however, is whatever Heather sees at the end of SH3. If it is the God offering itself to Heather in the form of a child... well, this makes our notions all for naught. If it isn't, then, well, we still have a shot at making some sense in canon, eh?

Could Claudia's desperate will to bring Paradise to mankind be the emotion God latched upon to rebirth itself? She did birth it, after all, though she wasn't the true mother. And there's something about SH4's Mother ending that makes me wonder...

Fuck it. I'm moving this to General Discussion, as I've gone and branched off into 38923480938 different topics.

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That is one point of view that I have never considered. I like the idea of Cheryl trying to get in contact again with her father. And why not?

Nice post Krist.


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Why not, indeed? Thanks, Scarlet.

Cheryl clearly has her own importance, not only power-wise but to be remembered and adored so fondly, if only in memory, by Harry after she disappears. I wonder if people often overlook her and focus more on Heather and Alessa instead, which is somewhat of a flaw: without Cheryl, there would, arguably, be no Heather.

Now, that thing I mentioned before, about the Mother ending (and God wanting to rebirth itself by latching onto the lingering emotions of the one who births it, or in SH4's case, Conjures it) - this is what always confused me about it. Henry's room is still tainted because of the hauntings you don't get rid of, and one would think he would be aware of this since he visits Eileen a day later in the hospital. So... why does he not argue with Eileen when she says she can go back to her apartment?

Well, Henry mentions, if you examine one of the photographs in his apartment, how he felt 'drawn' to S. Ashfield Heights when he saw it - could this 'pull' still be in place in the Mother ending, thus leading to the Room still being able to 'rebirth' itself via Eileen's return? Gah. Sorry if that didn't make any sense. Basically:

If you think that Cheryl's wish to be with her father helped instigate God's rebirth in SH1...
... And likewise believe that Claudia's desire for Paradise brought about another potential rebirth, thus explaining what Heather turned and saw...
... Then Henry's still lingering emotion toward the apartment complex, as well as the stain of Walter's Kingdom still being present in Henry's apartment, would lead to God being able to 'rebirth itself' through Eileen's return. Hence explaining her Mother Reborn title.

Hope that made sense. I think I stumbled onto something here - God's rebirth is, if you believe it, made possible by latching onto the emotion of its host or Conjurer. And doesn't that tie in with the tale of God's birth in the Order? The man and woman praying to the sun for joy and salvation? God was born from these two persons wishes - who is to say that this didn't happen at other points in the series?

Goddamn, I just impressed myself.

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>Henry's still lingering emotion toward the apartment complex

Do you mean Walter's?

Anyhow, I like this post a lot; I've been guilty of not giving Cheryl the consideration she deserves. I guess I sort of thought of her as just another piece of Alessa, like an arm or appendix. Shame on me.


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No, I mean Henry's - but I guess I should omit that sentence entirely, as the one that makes the most sense is the stain of Walter's Kingdom lingering in the apartment, thus the lingering emotions still there.

It's all right. Hell, I never saw her as very interesting, anyway, until I started thinking.

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Hope House Careworker
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Krist. wrote:
Dahlia sees God as the incubus that comes out of the Holy Woman in White, the latter of which is Alessa's idea of god. But moving on!


Ugggh, I always get that mixed up. I just keep thinking that the reason it would be in the image of Baphomet [a demon] would be because it was at the picture at the church in the antique shop, the place where Alessa would pray, and since she viewed the God as sort of a parasite, it would be inside of her. Ugggh. My mistake, sorry. [xD, I just realized that makes no sense, for it to be inside her, she would have to relate with the Holy Woman, thanks for correcting my stupidity. xD]


Krist. wrote:
It wasn't necessarily crappy luck that Claudia found Heather - she had been actively searching for her for a little while, even going so far as to enlist the help of Douglas to make it 'official.' The cult seems to have wanted to track her down sooner, too, considering that Harry killed one of the crazy cult people that came after he and his daughter, thus forcing them to change their names.


Haha, I know, I just meant that it was extremely bad luck for the cult to even find them, I mean, how would they find out about Heather's existance, even? Perhaps the cult was just after Harry, but found that Heather was with him, and she was the likeness of Alessa, or whatever. What I mean is, they should have moved farthur away. xD

Krist. wrote:
I do think that we are in somewhat of an agreement regarding Cheryl's powers and the possibility of her desire to be with her father inspiring God to bestow the baby to Harry - "Sure, you can see your dad again. But at a price." What throws this for a loop, however, is whatever Heather sees at the end of SH3. If it is the God offering itself to Heather in the form of a child... well, this makes our notions all for naught. If it isn't, then, well, we still have a shot at making some sense in canon, eh?


This is the part about the God that bothers me. It seems to me, that if when Alessa and Cheryl/Alessa's Dreamself combined at the end, there wouldn't be anything of Cheryl left, no consiousness left from which to fuel the God to allow Heather's birth. While Cheryl did have some power, Alessa had much more power than she, and if she had so much power, it seems like she would have been able to work some magic to weaken the God [though perhaps she did, considering the God wasn't that hard to defeat, it may be that people who take Aglaophotus as something that both expels and weakens the God could be wrong, perhaps it is Alessa who weakened the God.] It just doesn't make sense to me. Forgive my ignorance.

Until some hard proof comes out that states the entity that gave Harry Heather at the end of the game is the God, then I'll finally be able to settle this. :P

Krist. wrote:
Could Claudia's desperate will to bring Paradise to mankind be the emotion God latched upon to rebirth itself?


I think it's likely. I mean, Vincent does say that at least some of the church was conjured by her, and not Alessa. I really don't think Heather had to worry about birthing the God until she saw Claudia, it's possible Claudia somehow harnessed the power of Foggy Silent Hill and made it appear at the mall. Memories probably came back to her, unknowingly, at that hallway in the mall, which allowed the memory of God to also be planted deep in her mind. [Which is also important if you take the "God of Imagination" theory into account here, which is what I've personally believed all along, before even coming to this site.]

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>how would they find out about Heather's existance, even?
Claudia's "Sight."

>proof . . . that states the entity that gave Harry Heather at the end of the game is the God
a) Alessa believed in a god that looked like a woman, b) Alessa wouldn't allow god to continue living, thus c) she wouldn't give Harry a child with the god-fetus. The only thing that would give Harry the god-fetus would be, well . . . god, to continue its existence.

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St. Thomas wrote:
>how would they find out about Heather's existance, even?
Claudia's "Sight."


Damn, you're right. xD

St. Thomas wrote:
>proof . . . that states the entity that gave Harry Heather at the end of the game is the God
a) Alessa believed in a god that looked like a woman,


That doesn't mean that it was the God. Alessa was recombined, meaning she would certainly look different. I really don't believe what we see before the Baphomet-like God is a completely new being. The Holy Woman [Mother, whatever, I'm not good with these things.] looks like Alessa, thus I think it is Alessa. Just with the creature known as God inside of her.

St. Thomas wrote:
b) Alessa wouldn't allow god to continue living, thus c) she wouldn't give Harry a child with the god-fetus. The only thing that would give Harry the god-fetus would be, well . . . god, to continue its existence.


Or you know, the piece of Cheryl that still exists and wants Harry to have a second chance with her, with a daughter.

I don't know why I'm bothering to argue with you, you're going to shoot me down with your Silent Hill wisdomness. :x

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Quote:
That doesn't mean that it was the God. Alessa was recombined, meaning she would certainly look different. I really don't believe what we see before the Baphomet-like God is a completely new being. The Holy Woman [Mother, whatever, I'm not good with these things.] looks like Alessa, thus I think it is Alessa. Just with the creature known as God inside of her.


See, here's the thing: Alessa was recombined before the Holy Woman showed up. The girl kneeling next to the wheelchair is Alessa and Cheryl rejoined - Dahlia herself says it, and I think we can trust Dahlia at this point because she believes she has won. She's her most honest at the game's end, when she feels she has nothing left to lose by letting the truth slip out. The figure in the wheelchair is Alessa's body, but the kneeling girl is the combined parts of Alessa's soul. When the soul is merged with the body, out comes the Holy Woman in White - God.

Quote:
While Cheryl did have some power, Alessa had much more power than she, and if she had so much power, it seems like she would have been able to work some magic to weaken the God

Cheryl and Alessa are the same, I don't think one is more powerful than the other. In fact, they need each other - Alessa created Cheryl to save herself, and Cheryl needs Alessa to be whole. When Cheryl merges with her, Alessa has the downfall of having two conflicting desires: Cheryl's wish for life, and her own wish for death. It could be Cheryl's wish to live again that fucks up Alessa's plans.

Quote:
Or you know, the piece of Cheryl that still exists and wants Harry to have a second chance with her, with a daughter.


Cheryl could want all she wants, but God can make that possible. Please re-read my first post, as I just updated it with something pristine and more clear cut.

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Historical Society Historian
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No, I'm not. I even addressed that in a sentence or two after that.

Quote:
The figure in the wheelchair is Alessa's body, but the kneeling girl is the combined parts of Alessa's soul.

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Hope House Careworker
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See, here's the thing: Alessa was recombined before the Holy Woman showed up. The girl kneeling next to the wheelchair is Alessa and Cheryl rejoined - Dahlia herself says it, and I think we can trust Dahlia at this point because she believes she has won. She's her most honest at the game's end, when she feels she has nothing left to lose by letting the truth slip out. The figure in the wheelchair is Alessa's body, but the kneeling girl is the combined parts of Alessa's soul. When the soul is merged with the body, out comes the Holy Woman in White - God.


This is where I'm getting confused. When Alessa was left in sort of a coma [or whatever it was] her dream self was left to wander her nightmarish dreamscapes of charred ruins and twisted metal. I thought the girl kneeling next to Alessa [the wheelchair bound one] was Cheryl, who had sort of "connected" with Alessa [which is the reason for the first crossover into the Otherside.] I don't think when she said, "Oh Henry, you've been following Alessa all along, HAHA!" she was implying that it was a completely recombined Alessa, it sounded to me like she was saying that, Cheryl [now connected to Alessa, not recombined with, just controlled] was Alessa [which she is, though she is only a part of her.]

Quote:
Cheryl and Alessa are the same, I don't think one is more powerful than the other. In fact, they need each other - Alessa created Cheryl to save herself, and Cheryl needs Alessa to be whole. When Cheryl merges with her, Alessa has the downfall of having two conflicting desires: Cheryl's wish for life, and her own wish for death. It could be Cheryl's wish to live again that fucks up Alessa's plans.

Cheryl could want all she wants, but God can make that possible.


That actually makes a lot of sense. :shock:
Now only if I believed the God actually existed I would be willing to believe it.
I know what you meant about God making it possible, and it does make sense, it just doesn't settle well with me. I agree with the whole Cheryl=Life Alessa=Death thing, but I don't think the God has power enough to pull those kind of strings [unless you look at God as an all-powerful being, personally, I don't.]

Ugh, I really don't have any arguments. Certainly, I think your theory about it is pretty air-tight, I just don't agree with you.

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>I thought the girl kneeling next to Alessa [the wheelchair bound one] was Cheryl, who had sort of "connected" with Alessa

Well, it's possible. I'm not telling you not to think that - I just believe that the image you see kneeling next to the wheelchair is the combined soul, while the wheelchair's seated figure is Alessa's body - without a soul. This explains why Alessa can appear, disappear, and reappear wherever she wants all over the town: she's a spirit. Not a ghost, though.

Dahlia says Cheryl has been in front of Harry all along, only that he never realized it: I don't think she was actually pointing at a Cheryl sitting there, nor do I think Harry would ask "Where's Cheryl?! What have you done to her?!" if the kneeling figure was Cheryl.

I think the God is certainly a powerful being - but not all powerful. I kind of stressed that, by saying that God needs a human emotion in order to be born and reborn. It can create itself but it needs a catalyst.

That's fine. It'd be boring if we all agreed with each other.

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>No, I'm not. I even addressed that in a sentence or two after that.

Whoops, deleted my post too quickly. Yeah, I caught that in the reread, sorry. ^_^'


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It's fine, dear. I was confused for a second :P

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>the image you see kneeling next to the wheelchair is the combined soul
"You've seen her many times before, restored to her former self."

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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