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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises

Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
Notes left: 8028
Patman wrote:
Mephisto wrote:
We need another SH title like Shattered Memories. The stealth was awesome.

It sucked donkey balls. Not on paper, in its execution.

I managed to finish MGS4 with no kill and no alert in its hardest mode, yet whenever I tried to be stealthy in SHSM it turned out to be a massive waste of time.

The Last Of Us did it right, without disarming the player to make it work. And although I had lots of fun with its hardest mode, the one that deprives you of the radar, I think many players would find a lack of radar in a stealth game frustrating to no end. Especially if the ennemies have completely random patterns.

You have to actually plan what you're going to do in pretty much all stealth games but unfortunately most of them are trial and error. That's frustrating, to say the least.

And what makes it worse is that some games tend to make an entire horde of enemies available if only one spots you. I understand that if an enemy saw you and he was near another enemy then the other one would be able to see or hear you as well but most games are like in Oblivion, or even Fallout: Enemy X sees you and those that were 300 yards away also see you. That's just lazy and fucking ridiculous. It seems all of them have the gift of psychic powers... Or a hive mind of some sorts...

We need developers to borrow their work from Tenchu and MGS. The fathers of modern stealth when it comes to the consoles. Or pick the big names of the PC like Thief if you're a stupid fanboy, I don't care. Or they could just make realistical A.I behavior, for once.

Lure tactics would work well within a SH title. You plan to avoid the enemy by luring it away from your position. By throwing something perhaps. Anything but a fear metter that makes your character die if it reaches 100% is welcome.

I haven't played The Last of Us yet (and I don't really plan to anytime soon) but if the players find it hard to play without a radar them screw them. Learn to adapt. It's not that hard to plan where to wait, where to hide, when to strike and when to run if things fuck up. Difficulty levels are there for a reason. I, for example, play pretty much all of my games on normal. A person that finds it too difficult to shake off enemies should pick a lower difficulty and when said player becomes better then pick a higher one...

Either gives us difficulty options (the usual) or areas/places divided by difficulty level. Some easy, others medium and others hard (but fuck that very easy, very hard and impossible crap. Three are enough).

stonecoldsteveurkel wrote:
And since when Shattered Memories have stealth? The stealth in that game was horribly executed and lacking in options.

You could run away and hide. If that's not stealth then what the fuck it is? Stealth isn't just about not being seen. It's about avoiding enemies, too.

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Even MGS has more credibility as a stealth game than SM.

You do know that MGS is a stealth game and not a shooter, right? Because that "even" word of yours seems to prove otherwise.

Shattered Memories is only "crap" because it makes you run away 100% of the time and don't really make you plan on what to do next but the options are there.

Quote:
SM's problem was too much focus on story and presentation to tne detriment of gameplay. We don't need more pretentious jogging simulators that don't give the player enough interesting things to do.

What's an horror game if it doesn't involve a mistery of some sort? Running around searching for clues and where to go next tend to be a part of it.


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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises

Missing since: 20 Oct 2012
Notes left: 140
The problem isn't having a mystery. It's that the gimmicks meant to add extra dimension to the story and an artificial sense of immersion didn't do anything interesting nor did they substitute for how much was taken away in the gameplay department. Downpour has a lot of jogging and intriguing mysteries within both the main story and sidequests and does so without dumbing the gameplay down as drastically as SM did.

Sure, you could run away and hide in SM. But when you take into account how you can simply keep running and reach the exit anyway without too many obstacles other than the occasional monster grab, hiding becomes pointless. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten through each nightmare scenario without ever hiding once during the entire game. The enemies are repetitive and predictable in their design and behavior, and you have regenerating health. It also takes a while for your health to get drastically low. So long as you keep running without stopping, you'll reach your destination. There's no sense of skill, no required planning, or urgency involved. You just run and go for it within the very linear level design. And you'll do this several more times throughout the game. It's just boring monotony.

The central issue with being forced to run away 100% of the time is that it takes away player choice that was previously available to the play in past installments. As for MGS, it's basically been leaning more and more towards the shooting aspect of the gameplay ever since MGS4.

And the catch with a stealth focused Silent Hill...and I mean a REAL stealth focused SH game, not the half hearted attempt that was SM, is that it would require some semblance of skill and break the all too cited immersion. As Mephisto said, it requires a lot of planning and observation which is something SH fans aren't going to want to do as they tend to want gameplay to be as simplified as possible so that they can gawk at imagery and progress through the story with as minimal of consequences as possible. Introduce gameplay into the scenario and they find it uncomfortable and distracting.


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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 15 Aug 2003
Notes left: 1099
Last seen at: The most extreme and utter region of the human mind.
I think the best thing a horror game can do--a real horror game, and not just a game borrowing horror tropes and imagery--is to ignore traditional ideas of gameplay.

This is the problem I have with people who loved "Amnesia: The Dark Descent" but hated "Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs." They define what they want from the experience in terms of mechanics, the game system, what can and can't be done, and how much skill is required to get through it. Those are important factors for a lot of games, in which the point of the game is navigating the system well enough to get through it. They are not reasons why I play horror games, though.

The point of a horror game is to evoke a feeling; for some it's enough for that feeling to be straight fear, and that's fine, but the games that aim higher need an unsettling narrative. They cause discomfort and unease, but dole out information about the story just often enough to keep you playing despite those feelings, and the payoff is a story that is at least as unsettling as any of the game's individual parts.

There are lots of ways to accomplish this, but the intention shouldn't be to make the game "playable" in conventional terms; it should be to use the nature of the medium to manipulate the feelings of players in ways they don't expect or won't guard against. I found Shattered Memories' use of the Wii system to be immersive, internally consistent, and just clunky enough to inspire real feelings of panic without getting in the way of making it through the game. I thought the nightmare sequences were very close to nightmares I've actually had, in that the repetition was frightening in its own way because it felt like being perpetually trapped in an open space that I needed to escape. Things like linearity and lack of combat or sneaking mechanics didn't bother me, because changing them wouldn't have made the game scarier for me, or made the story any better.

If Konami decides to move forward with another Silent Hill game, I hope the studio they go with takes a cue from the indie horror scene, and takes risks with how it's built and how the players interact with it.

_________________
“The sinister, the terrible never deceive: the state in which they leave us is always one of enlightenment. And only this condition of vicious insight allows us a full grasp of the world, all things considered, just as a frigid melancholy grants us full possession of ourselves. We may hide from horror only in the heart of horror."
--Thomas Ligotti


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12052
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Well it looks like Metal Gear 5 is the only big Konami franchise that got shown at E3 this year. So much for the renewed focus on their existing franchises plural.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 09 Aug 2007
Notes left: 3639
Last seen at: Federative Republic of Butts
Droo wrote:
Well it looks like Metal Gear 5 is the only big Konami franchise that got shown at E3 this year. So much for the renewed focus on their existing franchises plural.


Pfft they showed the new PES too!!!!

:|

Seriously, where are they this year? It's like they've given up.

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Brookhaven Receptionist
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 13 Jun 2007
Notes left: 811
Last seen at: Brazil
The world needed more of the Dance Dance Revolution guy. :(

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises

Missing since: 12 Feb 2009
Notes left: 8028
Why bother when PES and MGS gives you tons of cash per second? "Let's keep things that way and play safe" I bet the directors say.

I want a new SH with, at least, most of the ideas that this forum (and pretty much every other place) brings but the light grows dim more and more.

Yeah, keep tossing the series all over the place. Give a crappy budget to a team and then, when things fail to deliver toss the developers over the window too. Silent Hill (the series) is like a cheap whore now...


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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
Yeah, it's a shame. There's so many great Konami franchises that are either farmed out to bad developers, or just left to die. I think it's probably a combination of problems in the Japanese economy, and bad management that has weeded out all the people with talent at that company.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 06 Mar 2008
Notes left: 1482
Last seen at: Colonia Claudia Ara Agrippinensium
Tillerman wrote:
Yeah, it's a shame. There's so many great Konami franchises that are either farmed out to bad developers, or just left to die. I think it's probably a combination of problems in the Japanese economy, and bad management that has weeded out all the people with talent at that company.

I think it's the whole japanese gaming industry, actually. They're no longer enjoying their former title of being the king of video game countries.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 12 Oct 2010
Notes left: 1446
Last seen at: Chicago
Jonipoon wrote:
I think it's the whole japanese gaming industry, actually. They're no longer enjoying their former title of being the king of video game countries.


That's okay, they don't have to wear a crown to make great games. Even if some of the big name Japanese companies are letting us down, there's still plenty of great stuff coming from Japan. I'm more worried about specific companies, like Konami and Capcom... although at least Capcom is doing a bit better.

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 21 May 2010
Notes left: 1241
Very dissappointed in konami's performance at E3. Is metal gear all they have left? So much potential for konami to step up to the plate and steal RE's thunder with at least a teaser for the next SH game.

I don't even think capcom mentioned anything regarding RE7....overall i wasn't impressed with this years E3 as nobody really showed anything that "wowed" me.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 20 Aug 2009
Notes left: 427
Last seen at: a land filled with things!
I see some worry over if Climax were to work on a new silent hill...and everyone is entitled to their opinions, but personally I'd be really excited if Climax were announced on board for a new Silent Hill game. Origins had a lite-story to it, but what story it had was decently done in my eyes and the atmosphere of that game was probably the closest I've felt to the Team Silent games since they stopped making games. I feel like Climax's biggest flaw with Origins is that they played it WAY too safe, but I guess I can't really blame them for that either, The Silent Hill series was delicate property to be handling.

Then, for all the lackings of story in Origins, I felt that Shattered Memories did an incredible job with story. The characterizations actually felt really fresh to me and managed to really create it's own out of the first game's inspiration.

Really what I'm getting at is, I think Climax was the closet team to really "getting" what made Silent Hill great. If they would learn from their mistakes with both games and maybe get someone like Tom Waltz back on board as a writer or co-writer, I think that we could really have a decent game on our hands. Of course in my restless dreams, I'd love to have Masahiro Ito and Akira Yamaoka back on the project as well, but I won't get my hopes up there.

Then again, I'm also really curious how a Kojima SH game would play out..if that ever really happens I mean.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises

Missing since: 13 Aug 2006
Notes left: 588
Last seen at: I can't remember.
Drainage64 wrote:
I see some worry over if Climax were to work on a new silent hill...and everyone is entitled to their opinions, but personally I'd be really excited if Climax were announced on board for a new Silent Hill game. Origins had a lite-story to it, but what story it had was decently done in my eyes and the atmosphere of that game was probably the closest I've felt to the Team Silent games since they stopped making games. I feel like Climax's biggest flaw with Origins is that they played it WAY too safe, but I guess I can't really blame them for that either, The Silent Hill series was delicate property to be handling.

Then, for all the lackings of story in Origins, I felt that Shattered Memories did an incredible job with story. The characterizations actually felt really fresh to me and managed to really create it's own out of the first game's inspiration.

Really what I'm getting at is, I think Climax was the closet team to really "getting" what made Silent Hill great. If they would learn from their mistakes with both games and maybe get someone like Tom Waltz back on board as a writer or co-writer, I think that we could really have a decent game on our hands. Of course in my restless dreams, I'd love to have Masahiro Ito and Akira Yamaoka back on the project as well, but I won't get my hopes up there.

Then again, I'm also really curious how a Kojima SH game would play out..if that ever really happens I mean.


You basically wrote my thoughts exactly. Climax would most likely be the best candidate to continue the franchise if Konami were to decide to never develop a sequel in house. Combining the atmosphere and mood of Origins with the story telling of SM would, IMO, likely result in a Silent Hill game to rival the originals. I'm skeptical, though, of the likeliness of the series ever being salvaged as it seems that Konami (and the video game industry as a whole) has seemingly gotten "too big" for the likes of series like Silent Hill.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
Notes left: 204
Origins was fantastic, it just needed more work. I assume everybody knows that Origins went trough a lot of problems in it's development. That's why it's an unfinished game. But the monsters, the atmosphere and how the players can explore the scenarios (specially in the motel, where you have an illusion of free choice, and that's even scarier, since the game doesn't really tell you what to do, and you feel alone and lost. At least, that's how I felt).

Shattered Memories was even better, I think. How the scenarios were extremely detailed, and how the plot is always there, even in the smallest things.

PS: If Kojima, by God's miracle, joins the team, I could die in peace.

EDIT: I sure wish Sam Barlow could come back also.

_________________
"Good people should love their enemies" - Seu Madruga


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SHH Cult Subscriber
SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises

Missing since: 26 Apr 2009
Notes left: 3410
HeartlessBastard wrote:
But the monsters

Yeah, because they were SH2's monsters.

Quote:
the atmosphere

Yeah, because it was SH1's atmosphere.

Quote:
and how the players can explore the scenarios

You mean how they took the entire point and feeling of the Otherworld away by giving the player control of when they enter and leave it?

Okay, sorry, I just wanted to be a bit cynical. Honestly, I don't think Origins is the worst game ever or anything. It's just, like, my least favorite SH. I even like Homecoming a bit more than it. On the flip side, though, Shattered Memories was pretty fantastic so as far as I'm concerned Climax is free to give it another shot.

Quote:
If Kojima, by God's miracle, joins the team, I could die in peace.

I really wouldn't hold my breath. The only thing he's said about it was that he was asked to do it but he didn't think he was the right person for it. Besides, this requires them to let him step away from Metal Gear for a minute and I doubt that will happen.

At this point, though, despite my hesitations about how well he'd suit the series, I want to see what he could bring to it just because of how much everyone wants him to do it.

Quote:
I sure wish Sam Barlow could come back also.

He works at Climax, right? So if Climax made a third SH title, I assume he'd be involved.


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Moderator
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12052
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Sam Barlow wrote Origins and Shattered Memories.

Origins had a pretty bad plot in my eyes but Shattered Memories knocked me on my ass, so I'd enjoy him coming back. I think.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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SHH Cult Subscriber
SHH Cult Subscriber
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises

Missing since: 26 Apr 2009
Notes left: 3410
Droo wrote:
Sam Barlow wrote Origins and Shattered Memories.

Origins had a pretty bad plot in my eyes but Shattered Memories knocked me on my ass, so I'd enjoy him coming back. I think.


I think the main problem with Origins story was that it couldn't decide if it wanted to be a SH1 prequel about The Order/Alessa or a SH2-style psychological journey, so by trying to be both neither story felt really complete or fleshed out. That's not the only problem, of course, the character and plot inconsistencies between SH1 and Origins was also pretty bad and while there was potential in Travis' story it definitely needed some work. I hope you all enjoyed reading this paragraph containing things you already knew and a wildly expressed opinion presented as unique.

Shattered Memories' story was pretty near perfect imo though so yeah. I'd like to see him get another shot at it.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject: Re: Konami: Upcoming Focus On Existing Franchises
     
         
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Missing since: 08 Aug 2012
Notes left: 204
NanayaShiki wrote:
HeartlessBastard wrote:
But the monsters

Yeah, because they were SH2's monsters.

Quote:
the atmosphere

Yeah, because it was SH1's atmosphere.


Sorry. but, is that bad?

NanayaShiki wrote:
Quote:
and how the players can explore the scenarios

You mean how they took the entire point and feeling of the Otherworld away by giving the player control of when they enter and leave it?


It worked for me. I was like: "Oh shite, I have to go there again :/"
I knew it was there, waiting. Could try to come back later, but I knew I had to face that damn mirror sooner o later.

NanayaShiki wrote:
Quote:
If Kojima, by God's miracle, joins the team, I could die in peace.

I really wouldn't hold my breath. The only thing he's said about it was that he was asked to do it but he didn't think he was the right person for it. Besides, this requires them to let him step away from Metal Gear for a minute and I doubt that will happen.

At this point, though, despite my hesitations about how well he'd suit the series, I want to see what he could bring to it just because of how much everyone wants him to do it.


I'm not really waiting anyway. I just have some hope.
My only insecurities are if Kojima can actually be more serious. Sometimes I think MGS (specially the fourth game, Gun of the Patriots) has a lot of misplaced and unnecessary jokes. They're not funny, just weird, Japanese stuff.

NanayaShiki wrote:
Quote:
I sure wish Sam Barlow could come back also.

He works at Climax, right? So if Climax made a third SH title, I assume he'd be involved.


Didn't he went to follow a freelancer career or something?

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"Good people should love their enemies" - Seu Madruga


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