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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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>I thought from Silent Hill 3 or 4 it was revealed that Dahlia was a leader of The Order with quite a bit of influence and power.

Dahlia wasn't a leader of The Order itself, as the Order was broken into three sects. Dahlia was part of one of them (Holy Woman, I think?) but I can't remember if it said she was the leader or just a high-ranking member (if it said either at all).

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Historical Society Historian
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^She's a high-ranking member of the Cult, just like Leonard was.


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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 25 Mar 2009
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Dahlia wasn't a leader of The Order itself, as the Order was broken into three sects. Dahlia was part of one of them (Holy Woman, I think?) but I can't remember if it said she was the leader or just a high-ranking member (if it said either at all).


It had to have the Holy Mother sect, since that was the one Claudia and Walter were a part of, the one that believes that God will be reborn through a human female and bring Paradise.

What are the other two sects again?


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Historical Society Historian
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>It had to have the Holy Mother sect, since that was the one Claudia and Walter were a part of.
Walter is from the Red Sect, not the Yellow. Or am I wrong?


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Walter is from the Red Sect, not the Yellow. Or am I wrong?


Isn't the ritual he performs called The Descent of the Holy Mother? And I'm pretty sure he meets Dahlia at some point during his childhood. It's in one of the memos.


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Historical Society Historian
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>And I'm pretty sure he meets Dahlia at some point during his childhood. It's in one of the memos.
Yeah, he met Leonard too and other guys from the Yellow Sect - but that don't mean anything... It's like "Hello little boy I'm from the Yellow Sect, now join me" WTF...


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RESPECT
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Oh. My. God. MISINFORMATION ALERT! MISINFORMATION ALERT!

First and foremost: None of the sects are named after colors. The 3 known sects—yes, there are others that have yet to be revealed—are:

· the sect of the Holy Mother
· the sect of the Holy Woman
· the sect of Valtiel

The sect of the Holy Mother is the sect Walter "belonged" to, led by George Rosten and eventually Toby Archibold. This sect believed god would be "inserted," essentially, into a person or object. Leonard Wolf also was a member—though not a leader.

The sect of the Holy Woman is the sect to which Dahlie Gillespie and Claudia Wolf belonged. Neither were leaders: Dahlia was considered a bit of a loose cannon, so to speak; Claudia frightened other members of the Order w/ her severe piety. This sect believed a holy woman would be impregnated via the ritual of resurrection, from which god would be birthed.

The sect of Valtiel was created as an intermediary between the above 2 rivaling factions. Jimmy Stone (a.k.a. "the red devil") was its leader.

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Historical Society Historian
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Thanks for pointing that out MMY, I tought Leonard and Claudia were from the same Sect, that cleaned some questions.


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Seriously, I was reading over the past few posts thinking the hammer was about to drop. They would all have to be pretty insane to allow Dahlia to run things though.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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What about the sect of Shepherd's Glen? Is that an entirely new sect, or do they belong to one of the other three?

Quote:
They would all have to be pretty insane to allow Dahlia to run things though.


Would they, though? Dahlia was a master of manipulating and tricking others into doing her bidding. Couldn't she have put on one face for The Order while working against them at the same time?


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DamienPales wrote:
What about the sect of Shepherd's Glen? Is that an entirely new sect, or do they belong to one of the other three?

No. SG was not part of The Order. The founding families were at one point generations back.

DamienPales wrote:
Would they, though? Dahlia was a master of manipulating and tricking others into doing her bidding. Couldn't she have put on one face for The Order while working against them at the same time?

As MMY stated, Dahlia was a loose canon. Were not the only ones that see that. I'm certain other Order members saw that in her as well. I'm doubting seriously she could've been the leader, no matter how manipulative she was.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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As MMY stated, Dahlia was a loose canon. Were not the only ones that see that. I'm certain other Order members saw that in her as well. I'm doubting seriously she could've been the leader, no matter how manipulative she was.


Not THE leader, just a high-ranking one.

I just remembered where in Silent Hill 4 Dahlia is mentioned. It's on those stones in the Forest where Wish House is, the ones only Eileen can read. This is the one that mentions Dahlia: http://www.shm.silenthillfever.com/sh4/ ... en-029.mp3

And this one too: http://www.shm.silenthillfever.com/sh4/ ... en-031.mp3

If she's an "important lady", that must mean she's well respected by at least a fair amount of The Order.


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A high-ranking person in her sect? Yes I can see that.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Well, Walter wrote those entries on the stones, and he was a member of the Holy Mother sect. So his superiors must have told him that Dahlia was an important lady that was going to visit the orphans.

Where exactly does it say that the Order looked down on Dahlia? I understand that the non-Order affiliated citizens of Silent Hill thought she was a crazy wench, but I got no inkling from any Order members that Dahlia was crazy or insane, except from Kaufmann for obvious reasons.


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RESPECT
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>Where exactly does it say that the Order looked down on Dahlia?
Silent Hill Official Guidebook Complete Edition

Dahlia "impulsively carried out the ritual in her own basement" as opposed to the "place [the Order] use[s] for rituals."

Additionally, Vincent calls Dahlia a "crazy, old hag," if I remember correctly. If Claudia's piety is frightening to members of the Order, what did they think of Dahlia?

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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That doesn't mean they looked down on her, it just means she's bucking their traditions in order to birth God. Alessa obviously wasn't going to allow God to be born naturally, so Dahlia had to do something outside of The Order's way of doing things.

Vincent doesn't say anything about Dahlia. I did a keyword search for "Dahlia" on the script for SH3, and nothing came up.

EDIT: Disregard my statement about Vincent and Dahlia. I found it. But I don't know if Vincent is representative of the views of most members of The Order. He was a conniving little thief, and he obviously doesn't like the whole "birthing God" idea.


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They definitely didn't love her, that's for sure. There's a difference between doing things your way and burning your daughter on a whim because you think that's the best way to bring God into the world.

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RESPECT
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>Alessa obviously wasn't going to allow God to be born naturally
Alessa had nothing to do w/ the ritual; she wasn't aware of what was happening.

>so Dahlia had to do something outside of The Order's way of doing things.
Not true. The process of impregnating a young woman had been done numerous times. Each girl died, however. Until Alessa, everything failed. The Order knew what was going to happen—the sect of the Holy Woman believes in that method of impregnation—Dahlia just went ahead and did it w/out them, alone, in the basement of her house.

>Vincent doesn't say anything about Dahlia.
Well, you're mistaken. Vincent says, "[Claudia] was totally brainwashed by that crazy old hag." He continues, "I guess 'crazy old hag' is a bit harsh. She is your mother after all. . . ." Thus: Dahlia.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Alessa had nothing to do w/ the ritual; she wasn't aware of what was happening.


Well, Dahlia was trying to get Alessa to do something, because Alessa kept refusing because she just wanted to be with her mother. It's what they're talking about before the final boss in SH1 on the landing of the house. Then Dahlia has an idea on how to speed things up.

Quote:
The Order knew what was going to happen—the sect of the Holy Woman believes in that method of impregnation—Dahlia just went ahead and did it w/out them, alone, in the basement of her house.


Why would she do it without them? Would The Order not have approved the ritual or something?

Quote:
Well, you're mistaken. Vincent says, "[Claudia] was totally brainwashed by that crazy old hag." He continues, "I guess 'crazy old hag' is a bit harsh. She is your mother after all. . . ." Thus: Dahlia.


I found it after all, I edited my message too late. I just said that Vincent seems like he's not the typical Order member. He doesn't even like what the Sect of the Holy Woman is trying to do in the first place, so it seems he's just disillusioned with the whole religion in general, not just Dahlia specifically.


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RESPECT
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>It's what they're talking about before the final boss in SH1 on the landing of the house.
Alessa is refusing to "lend [Dahlia] a teensy bit of [Alessa's] power." Dahlia wants Alessa to kill more people for her.

>Why would she do it without them? Would The Order not have approved the ritual or something?
Uh . . . b/c Dahlia's not the leader of the organization and does whatever the fuck she wants, regardless of what the rest of the congregation anticipates.

>He doesn't even like what the Sect of the Holy Woman is trying to do in the first place
Irrelevant. Vincent is specifically talking about how fucking bananas Dahlia is, and how the congregation views her.

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