Silent Hill Heaven

Not to mention that in Gnosticism, "Samael" is the name of the ultimate evil, the Blind God.

Also not to mention (another paraleipsis . . .) that there's a note in Silent Hill: Origins that indicates that The Order's god is called Samael. Of course we know that The Order doesn't call it that--they call it the Holy Mother, the Lord of Serpents and Reeds, the Creator of Paradise, god--so one can deduce that it's being called as such by opponents of The Order, similar to how members of the Sect of the Holy Woman say that "She who is called the 'Holy Mother' be not holy one whit."

^ I know that, but I was supposing that the note about Samael was one of Origins' inconcistencies ("Hey, take a Samael and put it somewhere, people will like it").

I didn't look for Samael's history and didn't think about the fallen angel explanation, so my fault, the theory still stands [even if the note in Origins hasn't actually been left by "opponents of the Order" if I remember correctly].

>I was supposing that the note about Samael was one of Origins' inconcistencies
The problem w/ doing that is that Silent Hill: Origins is canonical. If we assume that there's an inconsistency, then we have no reason to believe anything else in the entire series because it very well could also be an inconsistency. We have to assume, for discussion's sake, that there are no bungles or contradictions in the story, otherwise anything goes.

I've changed my mind a little bit.

I still think that Valitel and Pyramid Head are essential the same thing. Only not the creation of a God, but the creation of the town. In the case of Valitel a creation fueled by the cults prayers and beliefs. They believed Valitel into existence. And in James case a creation fuelled by his inner torment, created in the image of an executioner, but also mixed in with remnants of the towns past, i.e the Butcher/executioner ect..

But I'm still confused as to why a Pyramid Head appears in that painting which describes is as a god/angel? I need more info on these executioners.

Also when exactly does Valitel come into existence? I assume it's only during the events of SH3?

Breaka wrote:I still think that Valitel and Pyramid Head are essential the same thing.

*Bangs head against the table*

But I'm still confused as to why a Pyramid Head appears in that painting which describes is as a god/angel? I need more info on these executioners.

You posted here, so I'm assuming you did read the thread, right? AiTT gives an excellent summation of PH and his purpose.

Also when exactly does Valitel come into existence? I assume it's only during the events of SH3?

No. He's been around for the whole series, though perhaps not always named explicitly. Remember the robes hanging in the hallway? Or are you asking about when he physically manifested in the series? In which case, yeah, he only shows up (so far) in 3.

...By the by, if you are so convinced that Valitel=PH, then wouldn't you already know that he was also in 2? Y'know, according to that crazy theory, anyway?

The Order changes the names of all its worshipped beings so why wouldn't it change Xuchilbara to Valtiel to sound more "Christian/Judism" for fear of being thought of as pagans by the enemies of the Order?

I believe that Xuchilbara and Xuchilpaba is just a mistake made as names of the ancient americans passed to native americans and then passed on to the present americans. The only "god" to be present ever (before the whole Alessa birthing god debacle) is Valtiel. Yes the main diety can give the gift of rebirth, but Valtiel is known for it. So this is why the Crimson Ceremony is related to him IMO. This is why I believe the indians worshipped him aka the Red god.

Sidebar - A demon is not a fallen angel in reality. Demons are the spirits of the Nephilim which are the offspring or hybridization of human seed and fallen angel seed. This occured when 200 chieftans and their underlings of the Grigori Angels(Watchers) under the command of their leaders, Semjaza and Azazel left their first estate in heaven and descended upon Mount Hermon. There they all swore an oath to stick together and then each took human wives among them along with revealing to mankind heavenly secrets.
The fallen angels were considered devils and their leaders were bound and cast into chains in darkness to be held until the day of final judgment. The others were banished to the first and second heaven and from there had to watch their Nephilim children destroy one another and then die in the great Deluge. Since their souls were corrupted with angelic spirits and neither from heaven nor of Earth, they are forever punished to roam the Earth in spirit form. Here they will find no rest, akways thirst, always hunger, but will have no physical body to sustain relief.

Sorry, long side-bar! So anyways, Fallen Angel = A devil and Nephilim Spirit = A demon. Okay, I'm done!

>The Order changes the names of all its worshipped beings
Such as . . . ?

>for fear of being thought of as pagans by the enemies of the Order?
When, exactly, has The Order been afraid of being considered "pagans"? That's only your assumption.

>I believe that Xuchilbara and Xuchilpaba is just a mistake
If it the intent was for us to assume it was a mistake--a translation error among the Natives--then the developers would have made this known. However, there is no translation error w/in the context of the games: Xuchilpaba is different from Xuchilbara in both the English translation and the Japanese script. If we are to assume it is an error, then nothing w/in the context of the Silent Hill series is credible because anything could be an error. But, because they are spelled differently, and because the two deities serve different purposes, there is no reason not to identify them as different deities.

>The only "god" to be present ever is Valtiel.
Valtiel is an angel. Angels are not gods. The red god, then, cannot be an angel and therefore cannot be Valtiel.

>Sidebar - A demon is not a fallen angel in reality.
Perhaps not in the context of Judeo-Christianity, but that's not what we're discussing. We're discussing The Order.

I'm sad that you didn't respond to anything from my message addressed to you on the previous page. Would you please have the courtesy to answer my questions next time as I have graciously been doing for your comments?

I'm sorry Mockingbird. I don't know what questions you were directing at me to respond to.

I believe the theory that each sect of the order worships one of the threesome of gods told about within the creation story, but all worship the main deity as well.
Angels/gods are interchangable. Gods of old are created beings whom have quit there duties as being "angels" to the main deity and have desired to be worshipped themselves since they are in fact higher than humans in terms of power.

Valtiel is an angel, but he also has a purpose besides being a messenger/helper of the main deity. Since the creators of Silent Hill went into the detail of calling Valtiel the angel of rebirth after they told os of the Crimson Ceremony about Rebirth. Then giving us the creation story in 3 about the Red God and Yellow God, it just seems that they want us to link Valtiel with the Red God.

The Order has adopted parts of the native american relgion/ They changed the names of the deities just like the Romans changed the names of the Greeks, but were still the same beings. The Order never mentions the main god's name as anything. If they thought it was Xuchilpaba then why not ever call it that?
I still believe that the "Lord of Serpants and Reeds", Xuchilbara/Xuchilpaba, and Lobsel Vith are the Main Deity, Red God, and Yellow God. Xuch--- just seems to be the one who is closest to God with the ability to give Rebirth aka the Order's Valtiel.

I'll go through the previous pages here and get more into detail with your repsonses directed towards me and write some more in a bit. Thanx!

Reading over this topic made a few questions pop into my head. Having never played the game, I don't have access to all the documents you guys do, so I KNOW I'll get things wrong. Don't tear me up too badly, okay?

My first question is, well, why do people think Valtiel is Pyramid Head? Is there any logic behind it, or do people just get confused because, if I'm getting my info correct, Pyramid Head is designed off executioners in the past who were designed after Valtiel. Does that make any sense?

Another question is, is the reason the cult's opponents call the God Sameal in an attempt to 'demonize' it? It would make a bit more sense then the God being Sameal itself, if you understand me.

My last question (I think) is if God really IS a demon, what does that make Valtiel? A fallen angel, a monster, or what?

I think that's it... I did have something like a theory floating around my head, but I can't seem to quite get a hold on it and make it a decent thought, or even a complete thought at that!

My first question is, well, why do people think Valtiel is Pyramid Head? Is there any logic behind it, or do people just get confused because, if I'm getting my info correct, Pyramid Head is designed off executioners in the past who were designed after Valtiel. Does that make any sense?

More or less, yea. And some people just zone in on them both being monsters that stalk you, and stuff.

Another question is, is the reason the cult's opponents call the God Sameal in an attempt to 'demonize' it? It would make a bit more sense then the God being Sameal itself, if you understand me.

Correct.

My last question (I think) is if God really IS a demon, what does that make Valtiel? A fallen angel, a monster, or what?

It's my personal theory that Valtiel's just a psychic manifestation like practically everything else in the Otherworld.

>Don't tear me up too badly, okay?
Don't worry. There aren't really stupid questions. Just stupid ways in which they're asked, and stupid answers. . . .

>why do people think Valtiel is Pyramid Head?
I have answers for just about everything. Not this, though. I never understood it. It's unreasonable and irrational. Appearance, I guess, is the main reason, but I've never gotten a decent enough answer to appreciate why someone would think they're the same thing.

>is the reason the cult's opponents call the God Sameal in an attempt to 'demonize' it?
Yes. Samael, in Judeo-Christian theology, is ha-Satan, the Adversary, so calling something, anything, that a group believes in, worships even, "the devil" is blasphemous and insulting--it just doesn't jive w/ 'em, ya dig?

>if God really IS a demon, what does that make Valtiel?
We don't know that god is a demon. We only know that it's unpleasant. In the context of The Order--which is what we have to work w/--god is just that: god. It is not the same as the Christian G-d, but in terms of The Order, it is. Thus, in regards to this religion, Valtiel is "the one closest to god"--and parallel to Judeo-Christianity (J-C), that's Metatron (though before the great Fall, it was Samael). So, what we have is an angel, Valtiel, that bears the same role as Metatron does in J-C; similarly, we know that, "According to The Kabbalah, the angels Metatron and Samael originally shared the same existence" (Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicle). I suggest, then, that Valtiel is not only Metatron but also Samael.

>I've never gotten a decent enough answer to appreciate why someone would think they're the same thing.
Maybe because there is no decent enough answer, but a simple one. Those who think it's true has obviously not understood their purposes to the full, and therefore not their differences either.

It could be because they both look the same on account of executioners traditionally wearing the robes in the image of Valitel. Or because neither are real, but rather embodiments & manifestations. And they both play similar roles as facilitators.

I think they are different, but ultimately they are all just the make up of alternative silent hill.

Ok, gonna go a little off topic, here.What is "the mark of Samael"?
At first, I though it was just something Dahlia made up to guide Harry into doing what she wanted, that it was she not Alessa that was leaving the mark all over town.

I have been studying the Angelic Scriptures and the Old Testament, and I just started browsing for names used in the game, i.e Phaleg, Metatron, Samael,etc. and I found the Hebrew name Sameal, and that it was an angel. Most, if not all angels name's broke down into 2 words, "something" and "god", and in Hebrew Sam is "poison" and el is "god", so when put togther, it would be "poison of god" or along those lines. So I began to think that Alessa was the one envoking Samael in a way to destroy god. Is this correct or do I need to do more reading?

>What is "the mark of Samael"?
Did you read the first post? It's the Virun VII Crest.

>So I began to think that Alessa was the one envoking Samael in a way to destroy god.
Alessa is using the Virun VII Crest to amplify her powers in order to annihilate god and seal the town into the abyss.

According to my explanation, Valtiel is The Order's Metatron/Samael. Therefore suggesting that Alessa is conjuring Valtiel, the "one closest to god," to destroy god is absurd. What she's doing is drawing power from the Virun VII Crest--which can be used for "good or evil"--to prevent god's birth: She's willing to sacrifice herself to stop the coming of "paradise."

She is channeling "the one closest to god" to stop god from being birthed, but who is the envocation towards or against? If she is envoking "the one closest to god" against god, as you said would be absured because she would lose, hands down. Even though, Lucifer, as you know was created as the strongest of all the angels in heaven, second only to his creator, he still fought against his creator for power, and lost. So, coming from such a religous background as Alessa was, she would most likely know that. Would this be why she chose to envoke Metatron instead, later in the 3rd game? And if she is willing to sacrifise herself, why must she envoke such a powerful being? Why not just destroy Cheryl and make it impossible to rejoin the 2 halves?

Harrys_Girl wrote: She is channeling "the one closest to god" to stop god from being birthed, but who is the envocation towards or against?

Re-read this quote from Mockingbird's last post:

What she's doing is drawing power from the Virun VII Crest--which can be used for "good or evil"--to prevent god's birth

Alessa isn't channeling "the one closest to god". She's channeling power from a neutral source, the Virun VII Crest. The Metatron/Samael name relationships don't really apply here.

Why not just destroy Cheryl and make it impossible to rejoin the 2 halves?

Alessa wanted to keep at least part of herself away from suffering. Alessa didn't want Cheryl to come back to Silent Hill, and she certainly didn't want to destroy herself at that point in time. But once Cheryl did happen to return out of Alessa's intense suffering, she managed to reunite with her, escape from the order, and begin constructing the Virun VII Crest.

The power drawn from the Virun VII crest wasn't going to be used to destroy god, but rather for Alessa to destroy herself.

>Lucifer, as you know was created as the strongest of all the angels in heaven
Lucifer is not ha-Satan.

Besides, even if Alessa was channeling Valtiel, the Lord of Serpents and Reeds is not omnipotent like Yahweh, especially not as an unborn, unconscious fetus.