why is valtiel always harassing nurses?

[The Adversary]

The only thing that's been raped in the Silent Hill series isn't a thing at all--it's a person: Angela Orosco. Nothing else. No one else.

[michinobu_zoned]

Well, it all seems very much like rape, and rape seems to be a common theme amongst the tourists of Silent Hill, with PH raping pretty much everything, and Heather having an intense fear of being raped herself. Seems like maybe the town just picks up on this "don't rape me plz" vibe and rolls with it

Well, rape fits pretty well with the ugly, masculinity of the male monsters such as Pyramid Head. Or, even the Butcher from "Origins". I think they represent that aspect of the male and female subconscious. It's one of the savage natures of human mind that Silent Hill uses to disturb the audience. Some how, violent acts towards something feminine speaks better to the audience.

Some psychologists would say that this is how all of us would be, if we had no society, no laws and subconscious reinforcements that make committing such acts undesirable. But, the thing about most horror fictions which often times will choose female victims is that they remind of us of "inhuman" such acts are.

Yet, the thing about real serial rapists or serial murders who do tend to target women, is that they're far from the monstrosities that movies and other forms of fiction tend to have us believe. Scientifically speaking, they're normally people who suffer from anti-social personality disorder (conman personality disorder), who are normally quite charming and far from being "unsocial" but also derive pleasure from victim's pain.

And, they probably target women because although adult women may not be as easy to kill as animals and children they're easier than men and have more sophisticated ways of pleading with their attackers - thus making their victimization more pleasurable to the apd sufferer. But, if Pyramid Head wasn't so grotesque and was some handsome shirtless man (with no pyramid helmet) going around abusing female monstrosities it wouldn't do the same for us. That's because society has told this is far from human (far from civilized), and thus we want to believe that only monsters do these things.

Because, we want to disassociate ourselves as far as possible from rapists and murderers that we tend to make them into literal monsters in our stories. When in reality the only monsters are our next door neighbors or the ones that lie within us.

That's probably why James tried to have himself not remember how his wife died, because he couldn't accept the fact that he was a murderer that his subconscious tried to have him forget this to cope with the fact.

I could be wrong, but I do believe it was the screenwriter who said that on a ShoTime special. That's why the cockroaches had human faces, because they were human.

He said that "The monsters might be humans, or they might be manifestations of Alessa's pain. It's really up to interpretation. (chuckle)." In other words, he was pulling a Vincent.

It would make sense that Roger Avery would say this, because that's the kind of thing a real artist would say. Anything that they don't spell out for you is meant for interpretation. Besides, letting other people do the work for you by putting letting them put their own input into your work makes things easier for you.

LIke, if you were a painter and you allowed your audience to give their own interpretations of your work, you could pick the best sounding one and say "Yeah, her interpretation seems pretty close to what I had in mind," and fool everyone into thinking you're some kind of genius.


But, as far as the monsters go, both movie producers and the game producers leave enough room to suggest that it's not some of the monsters were human at one point in time, which leads one to assume that they were all human at one point in time. After all, I think that since the monsters can kill in real life, I think that it's only how the viewer percieves them is dependent on their inner psyche and not on the fact that they're in the first place. This is based on comments made in SH2 and SH3. It's possible for two people to see different things when viewing the same monster.

But, the fact that all the monsters were humans (if you interpret it as such) is what adds to the story's disturbing nature. As with the comment I made earlier about society leading us to believe that murder and the like are inhuman acts, it's because we're taught to that these acts are wrong (and rightly so) that we try to make those who commit them as far from as possible.

[Mis Krist.]

Well, it all seems very much like rape, and rape seems to be a common theme amongst the tourists of Silent Hill, with PH raping pretty much everything, and Heather having an intense fear of being raped herself. Seems like maybe the town just picks up on this "don't rape me plz" vibe and rolls with it

What the...?

Rape was not a common theme with SH tourists. Where did you get this?

PH did not rape "pretty much everything." Have you been exposed to very horrible yaoi, perhaps in which James is victimized by this thing?

Nowhere, at any point in time, at any point in the game, even for the briefest of seconds, has Heather even vaguely, distantly referenced a fear of rape. WHERE are you getting this?

I'd be insulted if I wasn't so disgusted.

[AuraTwilight]

After all, I think that since the monsters can kill in real life, I think that it's only how the viewer percieves them is dependent on their inner psyche and not on the fact that they're in the first place. This is based on comments made in SH2 and SH3. It's possible for two people to see different things when viewing the same monster.

Two people are able to see the same monster as different things because the monsters AREN'T REAL! They can kill in real life because of the power of the Otherworld.

But, the fact that all the monsters were humans (if you interpret it as such) is what adds to the story's disturbing nature. As with the comment I made earlier about society leading us to believe that murder and the like are inhuman acts, it's because we're taught to that these acts are wrong (and rightly so) that we try to make those who commit them as far from as possible.

An interpretation isn't a fact.

[michinobu_zoned]

After all, I think that since the monsters can kill in real life, I think that it's only how the viewer percieves them is dependent on their inner psyche and not on the fact that they're in the first place. This is based on comments made in SH2 and SH3. It's possible for two people to see different things when viewing the same monster.

Two people are able to see the same monster as different things because the monsters AREN'T REAL! They can kill in real life because of the power of the Otherworld.

But, the fact that all the monsters were humans (if you interpret it as such) is what adds to the story's disturbing nature. As with the comment I made earlier about society leading us to believe that murder and the like are inhuman acts, it's because we're taught to that these acts are wrong (and rightly so) that we try to make those who commit them as far from as possible.

An interpretation isn't a fact.

An interpretation isn't fact, but as to where the monsters come from (either from the souls of humans or out of thin air) there's no fact to this, because it's left entirely left up to us. The developers leave the origin of the monsters up to the audience's interpretation on purpose, so as to keep the series alive. It's the enigma behind Silent Hill that draws us (the audience or players) to it. Because, the questions aren't answered through game canon there's no real answer. The mystery behind the monsters remains in a quantum state (neither true, nor false - look up quantum logic) until one of the Japanese Konami developers explain it once and for all.
Unfortunately, if they do, put our monster theories to rest, then chances are it's over for the series altogether which is a sad thing. It's the mystery that fuels the series, because the people who've played one game in the series are always eager to see if the next installment will answer any of the unsolved mysteries of the prior episodes - which often times the newer episode will bring up even more questions.

When the mystery is finally solved, then there's no more Silent Hill - it's over with by then.


================================================

Well, it all seems very much like rape, and rape seems to be a common theme amongst the tourists of Silent Hill, with PH raping pretty much everything, and Heather having an intense fear of being raped herself. Seems like maybe the town just picks up on this "don't rape me plz" vibe and rolls with it

What the...?

Rape was not a common theme with SH tourists. Where did you get this?

PH did not rape "pretty much everything." Have you been exposed to very horrible yaoi, perhaps in which James is victimized by this thing?

Nowhere, at any point in time, at any point in the game, even for the briefest of seconds, has Heather even vaguely, distantly referenced a fear of rape. WHERE are you getting this?

I'd be insulted if I wasn't so disgusted.

Well, the truth is - the nurses aren't really being raped. I don't know where the imagery comes from, but it might not be Heather's fear of rape but something else from her subconscious - but I'd rather not delve into psychology right now.
The thing is if you go to "Valtiel's Silent Hill Site Forums" for people who mod the Personal Computer version of Silent Hill Three, you'll see somewhere in there that the Fukkaru nurse's skin is actually different from the other nurse's skin. For one thing, she doesn't have blood around her mouth like the violent nurses. Also, she's smiling.

I've only played the US version, but I think that the scene where Heather first goes into the "Nightmare World Mall" version in the elevator and states "not even a kid could believe in this" I think they have a scene where Valtiel is giving a ride to one of the fukurô chicks. One of the mod forum members showed the ripped models and everything and it even had an up-skirt shot.

I could be wrong, and being it's a mod forum site, it's possible they faked this. But, that's my take on it, that Valtiel isn't raping anybody (monster or not). And, sorry to female readers, I'm sure all this "nurse rape" and "fukurô" talk is a little offensive to - at least with some of you if not most or all - of you women.

But, the sexual themes in the Silent Hill series doesn't make the developers all perverts. Sigmund Freud theorized that sexuality is tied strongly to the human psyche. It's why we get words like "anal" or "anal-retentive" because of Freud's theories as to why people are the why they are. I think the developers know a little about psychology and try to represent this artistically, usually in a grotesque manner since we tend to look down on such subjects in everyday life.

[Reciever_Of_Wisdom]

What the...?

Rape was not a common theme with SH tourists. Where did you get this?

PH did not rape "pretty much everything." Have you been exposed to very horrible yaoi, perhaps in which James is victimized by this thing?

Nowhere, at any point in time, at any point in the game, even for the briefest of seconds, has Heather even vaguely, distantly referenced a fear of rape. WHERE are you getting this?

I'd be insulted if I wasn't so disgusted.

I don't have the source for where I found out about Heather's unmentioned fear handy, but I strongly recall reading it somewhere. I could be wrong there, but I wouldn't jump to such a strange conclusion without having heard it first. The only in-game reason I can think of to back it up would probably be the fact that she has both a stun gun and knife handy. I'll keep looking for that.

As for PH, a good deal of the scenes involving him are of him assaulting other monsters, first with the Mannequins, an effeminate-seeming monster, and again with a patient demon before the first fight with James. Even with the execution of Maria, she is "penetrated" by spears, all though that is sort of a stretch. All of the brutal, dominating behavior PH displays, especially towards feminine objects, comes off to me as a rape-scenario, or at least very provocative assault scenes. That's just my theory, though. I'm not marketing it as truth.

[AuraTwilight]

An interpretation isn't fact, but as to where the monsters come from (either from the souls of humans or out of thin air) there's no fact to this, because it's left entirely left up to us. The developers leave the origin of the monsters up to the audience's interpretation on purpose, so as to keep the series alive.

That's where you're wrong. The entirety of the Otherworld, including the monsters within it, is a creation of it's conjuror, whether that's Alessa, James, Angela, etcetera. The only monsters who were ever human are the Scrapers, Missionaries, and Leonard, who were transfigured by Claudia's powers. This is straight from the mouths of Team Silent in the Lost Memories guidebook.

It's the enigma behind Silent Hill that draws us (the audience or players) to it. Because, the questions aren't answered through game canon there's no real answer. The mystery behind the monsters remains in a quantum state (neither true, nor false - look up quantum logic) until one of the Japanese Konami developers explain it once and for all.
Unfortunately, if they do, put our monster theories to rest, then chances are it's over for the series altogether which is a sad thing. It's the mystery that fuels the series, because the people who've played one game in the series are always eager to see if the next installment will answer any of the unsolved mysteries of the prior episodes - which often times the newer episode will bring up even more questions.

When the mystery is finally solved, then there's no more Silent Hill - it's over with by then.

You're really overdramatic.

[Rin]

The only in-game reason I can think of to back it up would probably be the fact that she has both a stun gun and knife handy. I'll keep looking for that.

Women can carry a small knife or a stun gun for a multitude of reasons--not necessarily due to fear of rape. Kidnappers (cult members), Stalkers (in a sense, cult members), Gangs--the list goes on and on as to why, exactly, she might be carrying those things. She's concerned about protection, that's all. She's lived in hiding her whole life, and her dad's already had to kill off a cult member. I don't think it's such a leap to assume it's just for generalized protection. Heck, Harry might have even requested she carry them.

[michinobu_zoned]

An interpretation isn't fact, but as to where the monsters come from (either from the souls of humans or out of thin air) there's no fact to this, because it's left entirely left up to us. The developers leave the origin of the monsters up to the audience's interpretation on purpose, so as to keep the series alive.

That's where you're wrong. The entirety of the Otherworld, including the monsters within it, is a creation of it's conjuror, whether that's Alessa, James, Angela, etcetera. The only monsters who were ever human are the Scrapers, Missionaries, and Leonard, who were transfigured by Claudia's powers. This is straight from the mouths of Team Silent in the Lost Memories guidebook.

I do recall a book someone mentioned on this forum, and I read about cult-members being transfigured into monsters. But, there was no mention that all other monsters were NOT formed from humans as well. Unless it specifies that they weren't spawn from humans, then there is room for interpretation, and - based on the comments made by Team Silent on video interviews - it would seem my interpretation is pretty close to the implied nature of the game's content by the designers themselves.

The only in-game reason I can think of to back it up would probably be the fact that she has both a stun gun and knife handy. I'll keep looking for that.

Women can carry a small knife or a stun gun for a multitude of reasons--not necessarily due to fear of rape. Kidnappers (cult members), Stalkers (in a sense, cult members), Gangs--the list goes on and on as to why, exactly, she might be carrying those things. She's concerned about protection, that's all. She's lived in hiding her whole life, and her dad's already had to kill off a cult member. I don't think it's such a leap to assume it's just for generalized protection. Heck, Harry might have even requested she carry them.

Yeah, you have a point. Besides, I don't think (anymore at least anyways) that he's raping anybody. I think it represents assault on female rather than rape in itself. Heather's fear of a male-attacker makes sense since she doesn't have anyone else in her life to protect her but her foster-father.

Either that, or it's her subconcsious' desire for something like that to happen to her with her own sexual partner. Many of you girls might disagree, but the "rape victim" (using it loosely because no one wants to be raped) is something psychologists have looked at. I'm not talking about the body's responses or anything like that in the event of sexual assault. Women can't help that, it's the same with men as well. A male's consent isn't defined by his body's responses, but both his attacker and his female variant will often times have their body's used against them by their attacker. Like, "You know you want this. Look at [insert genetalia readiness remark]!"

I'm talking about women who've had dreams about this, and fantasies and may have sought counseling because they think maybe there's something wrong with them. Also, men have this too, but are less likely to seek counseling for something like this.
To pscycho-analysts, that fantasy might represent a woman pent up sexual frustrations. To have a male (or female - whatever) to take charge in a sexual situation removes her of all responsibility. Like, "I'm not a slut or pervert because I had no choice in the matter."
This is common with peoploe who come from societies or families where sexual independence is frowned upon. You really don't know much about Heather's personal life. Was Harry kind of strict when it came to Heather and boys? Or, is this Alessa from the cult, or even Claudia's fantasies? I imagine being a burnt, crisp and growing up without any sexual or intimate contact with men could manifest itself with the valtiel and nurse situations.

And, if this is really Claudia (remember the comment Vincent made to her late in the game?), then she might've grown up thinking sex was inherently evil. Did the cult members believe in sex? I know some of them were perverts and were pedophiles even, but didn't they adopt children because their cult didn't believe in sex or something?

I'm sure Claudia couldn't live with the guilt of being a sexual deviant, if she were to engage in her human/animal need to procreate. But, if someone else put her into that situation, she could live with herself then. She might kill her attacker (in some horrific way), and tell herself that she's still a true believer.

What does anyone else think about my sexual theory with the female characters? It seems like in SH2 the PH fukurô scenes represent James' sexual frustration, but I think it's also applicable to Silent Hill 3. We just have to determine who's fantasies are these?

[AuraTwilight]

I do recall a book someone mentioned on this forum, and I read about cult-members being transfigured into monsters. But, there was no mention that all other monsters were NOT formed from humans as well. Unless it specifies that they weren't spawn from humans, then there is room for interpretation, and - based on the comments made by Team Silent on video interviews - it would seem my interpretation is pretty close to the implied nature of the game's content by the designers themselves.

It was stated that those once-human monsters (Missionary, Scrapers, Leonard) are SPECIAL in their former human status, and that all the other monsters are conjurations of the mind. Like Maria, they were created out of thought and thin air.

[Mis Krist.]

>didn't they adopt children because their cult didn't believe in sex or something?

Whoevers butt you pulled that from? Yeah, you should put it back

[The Adversary]

>I wouldn't jump to such a strange conclusion without having heard it first.
You managed to just fine, because there's nothing to read about "Heather having an intense fear of being raped herself."

>a good deal of the scenes involving him are of him assaulting other monsters
Two. Two scenes. Not "a good deal." Big difference. And the r.p.h. still isn't raping them.

>didn't they adopt children because their cult didn't believe in sex or something?
Serial. Where are you people getting your information?

[michinobu_zoned]

>didn't they adopt children because their cult didn't believe in sex or something?
Serial. Where are you people getting your information?

The first two weren't mine, but the third one was something I asked because I wasn't sure. I do recall that in real life, you did have a cult which it's members did not have sex and owned orphanages because of that. Since the Order did as well, I was wondering if this was ever mentioned in the series if they didn't believe in sex. Since, I'm not as knowledgeable as some of you guys.

But, as for my analysis, I think my argument holds valid. Regardless of whether or not sex was permitted, it seems they would view extramarital sex as being immoral. For someone like Claudia, who may have never had sex and may not ever tried, it's possible that the Valtiel scenes were of her subconscious. And, though I don't think they were being raped or anything, it did seem sexual in nature and it definitely was violent.

However, I do think that if it wasn't sexual, it'd probably make much more sense that Claudia's subconscious was replaying the horrible memories Leonard's beatings of her through Valtiel and the nurses. Actually, if given a choice of which of my theories to bet on, I'd bet my more recent theory of child abuse instead of anything sexual.

[Reciever_Of_Wisdom]

>I wouldn't jump to such a strange conclusion without having heard it first.
You managed to just fine, because there's nothing to read about "Heather having an intense fear of being raped herself."

>a good deal of the scenes involving him are of him assaulting other monsters
Two. Two scenes. Not "a good deal." Big difference. And the r.p.h. still isn't raping them.

Well, seeing as how I mentioned that most of that was observation and guesswork, feel free to explain exactly what PH was doing, since it's apparently not provocative assault, and tell me what I have and haven't heard.


Speaking of shitting on my ideas without contributing or actually helping me out and explaining, the thread where I found my original "Heather was afraid of being raped" theory was on a forum which has since closed, so I guess that's a dead lead.

Women can carry a small knife or a stun gun for a multitude of reasons--not necessarily due to fear of rape. Kidnappers (cult members), Stalkers (in a sense, cult members), Gangs--the list goes on and on as to why, exactly, she might be carrying those things. She's concerned about protection, that's all. She's lived in hiding her whole life, and her dad's already had to kill off a cult member. I don't think it's such a leap to assume it's just for generalized protection. Heck, Harry might have even requested she carry them.

This is a good point. I forgot to consider the Cult in the equation.

[michinobu_zoned]

>I wouldn't jump to such a strange conclusion without having heard it first.
You managed to just fine, because there's nothing to read about "Heather having an intense fear of being raped herself."

>a good deal of the scenes involving him are of him assaulting other monsters
Two. Two scenes. Not "a good deal." Big difference. And the r.p.h. still isn't raping them.

Well, seeing as how I mentioned that most of that was observation and guesswork, feel free to explain exactly what PH was doing, since it's apparently not provocative assault, and tell me what I have and haven't heard.

Well, observation is how interpretation is done. It's fiction, so you're allowed to do this, you just have to back it up with sound arguments. We do this with everything, like even in law and in the social sciences. So, you're not wrong just because someone disagrees.

Really, there's no wrong or right in this situation. Just who has the better argument, and which idea seems most likely. There are some ideas which are so off that they're not worth considering, like looking at PH and the mannequins and interpret it as something as unrelated as being a tribute to St. Patrick's Day.

But, it very well could be - you just need to show people something they might've been overlooking. Also, guess work doesn't work well, because you need proof to back up your claim.

[The Adversary]

>you're not wrong just because someone disagrees.
Well, when it's me. . . .

Anyway. The Order-run Wish House adopted children so that The Order could find an appropriate mother and father of god. They found one in Walter Sullivan.

>feel free to explain exactly what PH was doing
Killing them.

>a forum which has since closed
Fan-fiction, then. There's nothing from in-game evidence nor supplementary material to suggest Heather's "intense fear of rape."

[Reciever_Of_Wisdom]

>I wouldn't jump to such a strange conclusion without having heard it first.
You managed to just fine, because there's nothing to read about "Heather having an intense fear of being raped herself."

>a good deal of the scenes involving him are of him assaulting other monsters
Two. Two scenes. Not "a good deal." Big difference. And the r.p.h. still isn't raping them.

Well, seeing as how I mentioned that most of that was observation and guesswork, feel free to explain exactly what PH was doing, since it's apparently not provocative assault, and tell me what I have and haven't heard.

Well, observation is how interpretation is done. It's fiction, so you're allowed to do this, you just have to back it up with sound arguments. We do this with everything, like even in law and in the social sciences. So, you're not wrong just because someone disagrees.

Really, there's no wrong or right in this situation. Just who has the better argument, and which idea seems most likely. There are some ideas which are so off that they're not worth considering, like looking at PH and the mannequins and interpret it as something as unrelated as being a tribute to St. Patrick's Day.

But, it very well could be - you just need to show people something they might've been overlooking. Also, guess work doesn't work well, because you need proof to back up your claim.

Taken, I'm just wishing for more input and less naysaying. I do, however, like your St. Patrick's Day idea...


Also, the closed thread was over at black-helix, which has since abandoned it's domain, so I'm not just blowing smoke, the smoke simply didn't re-register it's domain. I'll keep looking.

[headkickrodeo]

Whoever's going on about the constant sexual themes in SH (I forgot the name...), the only time I've over seen overt sexual themes was in SH2. The first time you see PH assaulting Mannequins. I think he's acting on James' urges (even Lost Memories says the Mannequins represent his urges), when PH is mindlessly and creepily going through the motions with his clothes on. Not really raping them, he might not even be equipped for rape...I didn't believe this until I played through again. Sure enough, he's got two bent over a counter thrusting his pelvis, and then kills them...reminded me of the book "Of Mice and Men", except without the sympathy.

The other is the monster "Abstract Daddy"...which comes from Angela, and is essentially a walking bed frame with two writhing figures on it....and even the room when you save Angela from the large one, look at the tops of the walls. See all those holes with those piston-like things pumping in and out? The room that's pretty much nothing but flesh? That was pretty obvious symbolism.

btw, I think SH draws more from Carl Jung then Freud. Freud is losing his credibility these days. Doesn't PH seem like an archetype for James' guilt and darker side? (btw, the darker side which Jung said we should indulge sometimes so it doesn't consume us?)

[AuraTwilight]

btw, I think SH draws more from Carl Jung then Freud. Freud is losing his credibility these days. Doesn't PH seem like an archetype for James' guilt and darker side? (btw, the darker side which Jung said we should indulge sometimes so it doesn't consume us?)

Ha, someone besides me caught it. The Shadow Archetype.

[headkickrodeo]

Great minds think alike?

Well, maybe not about the Matrix.

btw, I've only played 2 & 3, are the others in the series as deep as those two? I just started SH1 for my PSP...

btw, I think SH draws more from Carl Jung then Freud. Freud is losing his credibility these days. Doesn't PH seem like an archetype for James' guilt and darker side? (btw, the darker side which Jung said we should indulge sometimes so it doesn't consume us?)

Ha, someone besides me caught it. The Shadow Archetype.