Gods Creation and Other Ideas (Spoilers, I Think)
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Gods Creation and Other Ideas (Spoilers, I Think)
I apologise if this theory has already been proposed and on that note, I'll begin:
I think a good source of info on Gods Creation are the lyrics to the song 'Sun' which are no doubt somewhere within the game but it's been a long time since I played it and I can't remember, so to be on the safe side I'll just pretend they only exist in the song, lol.
"In the beginning people had nothing
Their bodies ached and their hearts held nothing but hatred
They fought endlessly, but death never came
They dispaired, stuck in the eternal quagmire"
I think basically tells us that before God was born people were stuck in an almost hell.... I wonder if this means that everyone in Silent Hill was stuck in the 'Otherworld' to fight with their manifestations eternally. (Which also raises the question, after Angela ascends the stairs to stay in her hell, does that mean she can never die and is forced to live in the 'Otherworld' forever?).
"A man offered a serpent to the sun, and prayed for salvation
A woman offered a reed to the sun, and asked for joy
Feeling pity for the sadness that had overrun the earth, god was born from those two people"
This here, to me, says that God is indeed a creation of man and the powers of Silent Hill, I believe the two people were sick of being stuck in the 'Otherworld' and wanted to get out. Which somehow made the powers of Silent Hill manifest a God.
"God made time and divided it into day and night"
The 'Otherworld' has no day and night. Which, to me, indicates further that the people were stuck there before God was born.
"God outlined the road to salvation and gave people joy
And god took endless time away from the people
God created beings to lead people in obediece to her
The red god, Xuchilbara
The yellow god, Lobsel Vith
Many gods and angels
Finally, god set out to create paradise where people would be happy just by being there"
All of the above almost seems to me that it is telling us that God created the world as we know it, (a place where time is linear, they can die and there are no monsters).
"But there, gods strength ran out and she collapsed
All the worlds people grieved this unfortunate event
Yet god breathed her last
She returned to the dust, promising to come again
So god hasn't been lost
We must offer our prayers and not forget our faith
We wait in hope for the day when the path to paradise will be opened"
However, she died before she could fully create the 'Real World/Paradise', thus there was a new plane created where the 'Otherworld' could still seep through (AKA Foggy World) where all of the people got stuck, and maybe the path to 'Paradise' is simply the doorway back to the 'Real World'.
This, however, is where the problems occur in this theory, if the 'Foggy World' is an 'Incomplete Paradise' then why does the 'Real World/Paradise' exist at all?
Unless the 'Real World/Paradise' existed before the God was born and she was actually just opening the doorway to our world for the people stuck in the 'Otherworld'. (After all it is the area of Silent Hill specifically that is affected by the 'Otherworld' and not the entire globe.)
Vincents question 'They look like monsters to you?' could cause some problems with this theory also. To me, his question either signifies that the 'Monsters' are actually 'People' or 'Angels' to everyone stuck in the 'Foggy World/Incomplete Paradise', those people being Claudia, Vincent etc.... (I think they're all stuck in Foggy World anyway because I don't recall seeing them anywhere else).
Heather on the other hand is NOT stuck in the 'Foggy World' because she has God inside of her, this howover poses a problem, in that at the end of the game, does this mean that once the 'God' has been removed from her she is stuck in the different plane forever?)
Anyways back to the 'Monsters'... if they do actually appear as 'Angels' to the people stuck in 'Foggy World' does this mean that the Cult is trying to gain access to the 'Otherworld' as though it is the 'Paradise' and not the 'Real World' like my theory suggests. But ONCE AGAIN, this could simply be a misconception on Heathers part, and the 'Monsters' are simply 'Angels' trying to help her to escape the 'Otherworld/Foggy World'. Remember she dies at the start and wakes up back in the 'Real World'? (Much in the vein of Jacob's Ladder.)
Anyways, I'm just going to leave it there before I type the night away.
To sum it up:
Man stuck in 'Otherworld'
Man created 'God' to escape.
God tried to created a pathway to the 'Real World/Paradise'
God failed and thus only allowed the people to pass halfway and they got stuck in the 'Foggy World')
God needs to be reborn to allow the trapped people to pass from the 'Foggy World' into the 'Real World'? (I'm not too sure about this part.... because I can't remember if you encounter Claudia or Vincent in the 'Real World'.
Also:
Maybe the monsters are actually Angels trying to help keep Heather out of the 'Foggy/Otherworlds', however Heather misunderstands (Like Jacob's Ladder, it wouldn't be the first reference ) and sees them as monsters trying to kill her. Hence why Vincent says "They look like monsters to you?" and at the start of the game when she dies, she wakes up back in the 'Real World'.
This could also explain why there are fewer 'Monsters/Angels' in the 'Foggy World' because the 'Monsters/Angels' see it as a lower priority to keep people out of it?
No doubt people will have a lot of problems with my theory, (which is a good thing, it gives me something to ponder.)
It was, however, just an idea that I thought was an interesting concept, so please share your thoughts, I'm interested for peoples ideas on this. Also, I apologise for such a long post, everytime I wrote something down I thought of something else.
I think a good source of info on Gods Creation are the lyrics to the song 'Sun' which are no doubt somewhere within the game but it's been a long time since I played it and I can't remember, so to be on the safe side I'll just pretend they only exist in the song, lol.
"In the beginning people had nothing
Their bodies ached and their hearts held nothing but hatred
They fought endlessly, but death never came
They dispaired, stuck in the eternal quagmire"
I think basically tells us that before God was born people were stuck in an almost hell.... I wonder if this means that everyone in Silent Hill was stuck in the 'Otherworld' to fight with their manifestations eternally. (Which also raises the question, after Angela ascends the stairs to stay in her hell, does that mean she can never die and is forced to live in the 'Otherworld' forever?).
"A man offered a serpent to the sun, and prayed for salvation
A woman offered a reed to the sun, and asked for joy
Feeling pity for the sadness that had overrun the earth, god was born from those two people"
This here, to me, says that God is indeed a creation of man and the powers of Silent Hill, I believe the two people were sick of being stuck in the 'Otherworld' and wanted to get out. Which somehow made the powers of Silent Hill manifest a God.
"God made time and divided it into day and night"
The 'Otherworld' has no day and night. Which, to me, indicates further that the people were stuck there before God was born.
"God outlined the road to salvation and gave people joy
And god took endless time away from the people
God created beings to lead people in obediece to her
The red god, Xuchilbara
The yellow god, Lobsel Vith
Many gods and angels
Finally, god set out to create paradise where people would be happy just by being there"
All of the above almost seems to me that it is telling us that God created the world as we know it, (a place where time is linear, they can die and there are no monsters).
"But there, gods strength ran out and she collapsed
All the worlds people grieved this unfortunate event
Yet god breathed her last
She returned to the dust, promising to come again
So god hasn't been lost
We must offer our prayers and not forget our faith
We wait in hope for the day when the path to paradise will be opened"
However, she died before she could fully create the 'Real World/Paradise', thus there was a new plane created where the 'Otherworld' could still seep through (AKA Foggy World) where all of the people got stuck, and maybe the path to 'Paradise' is simply the doorway back to the 'Real World'.
This, however, is where the problems occur in this theory, if the 'Foggy World' is an 'Incomplete Paradise' then why does the 'Real World/Paradise' exist at all?
Unless the 'Real World/Paradise' existed before the God was born and she was actually just opening the doorway to our world for the people stuck in the 'Otherworld'. (After all it is the area of Silent Hill specifically that is affected by the 'Otherworld' and not the entire globe.)
Vincents question 'They look like monsters to you?' could cause some problems with this theory also. To me, his question either signifies that the 'Monsters' are actually 'People' or 'Angels' to everyone stuck in the 'Foggy World/Incomplete Paradise', those people being Claudia, Vincent etc.... (I think they're all stuck in Foggy World anyway because I don't recall seeing them anywhere else).
Heather on the other hand is NOT stuck in the 'Foggy World' because she has God inside of her, this howover poses a problem, in that at the end of the game, does this mean that once the 'God' has been removed from her she is stuck in the different plane forever?)
Anyways back to the 'Monsters'... if they do actually appear as 'Angels' to the people stuck in 'Foggy World' does this mean that the Cult is trying to gain access to the 'Otherworld' as though it is the 'Paradise' and not the 'Real World' like my theory suggests. But ONCE AGAIN, this could simply be a misconception on Heathers part, and the 'Monsters' are simply 'Angels' trying to help her to escape the 'Otherworld/Foggy World'. Remember she dies at the start and wakes up back in the 'Real World'? (Much in the vein of Jacob's Ladder.)
Anyways, I'm just going to leave it there before I type the night away.
To sum it up:
Man stuck in 'Otherworld'
Man created 'God' to escape.
God tried to created a pathway to the 'Real World/Paradise'
God failed and thus only allowed the people to pass halfway and they got stuck in the 'Foggy World')
God needs to be reborn to allow the trapped people to pass from the 'Foggy World' into the 'Real World'? (I'm not too sure about this part.... because I can't remember if you encounter Claudia or Vincent in the 'Real World'.
Also:
Maybe the monsters are actually Angels trying to help keep Heather out of the 'Foggy/Otherworlds', however Heather misunderstands (Like Jacob's Ladder, it wouldn't be the first reference ) and sees them as monsters trying to kill her. Hence why Vincent says "They look like monsters to you?" and at the start of the game when she dies, she wakes up back in the 'Real World'.
This could also explain why there are fewer 'Monsters/Angels' in the 'Foggy World' because the 'Monsters/Angels' see it as a lower priority to keep people out of it?
No doubt people will have a lot of problems with my theory, (which is a good thing, it gives me something to ponder.)
It was, however, just an idea that I thought was an interesting concept, so please share your thoughts, I'm interested for peoples ideas on this. Also, I apologise for such a long post, everytime I wrote something down I thought of something else.
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I highly doubt it. The Otherworld seems to have been a creation of Alessa's, and I can't imagine what people would've had to manifest back them. Mythological characters are pretty flat, y'know.I think basically tells us that before God was born people were stuck in an almost hell.... I wonder if this means that everyone in Silent Hill was stuck in the 'Otherworld' to fight with their manifestations eternally. (Which also raises the question, after Angela ascends the stairs to stay in her hell, does that mean she can never die and is forced to live in the 'Otherworld' forever?).
They were probably just immortal and it sucked, because the Order are basically death cultists.
The Otherworld DOES have day and night though.The 'Otherworld' has no day and night. Which, to me, indicates further that the people were stuck there before God was born.
This theory has now crossed into total incoherency. Ever think the Order is just a bunch of nuts?However, she died before she could fully create the 'Real World/Paradise', thus there was a new plane created where the 'Otherworld' could still seep through (AKA Foggy World) where all of the people got stuck, and maybe the path to 'Paradise' is simply the doorway back to the 'Real World'.
This, however, is where the problems occur in this theory, if the 'Foggy World' is an 'Incomplete Paradise' then why does the 'Real World/Paradise' exist at all?
Unless the 'Real World/Paradise' existed before the God was born and she was actually just opening the doorway to our world for the people stuck in the 'Otherworld'. (After all it is the area of Silent Hill specifically that is affected by the 'Otherworld' and not the entire globe.)
Plus, how can a manifestation create the entire Real World?
It's explicitly stated in Lost Memories which monsters are just monsters and which are humans. Not only that, but Vincent said he was joking. He's kind of an asshole.Vincents question 'They look like monsters to you?' could cause some problems with this theory also. To me, his question either signifies that the 'Monsters' are actually 'People' or 'Angels' to everyone stuck in the 'Foggy World/Incomplete Paradise', those people being Claudia, Vincent etc.... (I think they're all stuck in Foggy World anyway because I don't recall seeing them anywhere else).
Heather on the other hand is NOT stuck in the 'Foggy World' because she has God inside of her, this howover poses a problem, in that at the end of the game, does this mean that once the 'God' has been removed from her she is stuck in the different plane forever?)
Also, no Heather returns to the real world after you beat God in the Normal Ending. Look at the environment closely when she reunites with Douglas.
So...how come the ENTIRETY OF HUMANITY is living in the Real World? It looks like God got us here alright, to me.To sum it up:
Man stuck in 'Otherworld'
Man created 'God' to escape.
God tried to created a pathway to the 'Real World/Paradise'
God failed and thus only allowed the people to pass halfway and they got stuck in the 'Foggy World')
God needs to be reborn to allow the trapped people to pass from the 'Foggy World' into the 'Real World'? (I'm not too sure about this part.... because I can't remember if you encounter Claudia or Vincent in the 'Real World'.
According to the myth, God only created two divine servants, the Yellow God and the Red God, analogous to Angels. I'm kind've skeptical that all of the monsters are the same two monsters running around.Also:
Maybe the monsters are actually Angels trying to help keep Heather out of the 'Foggy/Otherworlds', however Heather misunderstands (Like Jacob's Ladder, it wouldn't be the first reference Razz) and sees them as monsters trying to kill her. Hence why Vincent says "They look like monsters to you?" and at the start of the game when she dies, she wakes up back in the 'Real World'.
This could also explain why there are fewer 'Monsters/Angels' in the 'Foggy World' because the 'Monsters/Angels' see it as a lower priority to keep people out of it?
Not only that, but it contradicts the idea of the monsters being hostile manifestations that, without God, man must fight forever. What, so God's Angels are such monumental dicks that they decide to torture and kill humanity over and over for fun?
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
As far as I was aware the Otherworld existed way before Alessa came along, I thought Alessa just had the power to control it. I don't understand what you mean about not understanding what people could have had to manifest back then, throughout history there have been stories of demons and monsters etc etc, so surely they would have manifested those? :SAuraTwilight wrote:I highly doubt it. The Otherworld seems to have been a creation of Alessa's, and I can't imagine what people would've had to manifest back them. Mythological characters are pretty flat, y'know.
Again, I don't understand what you mean about mythological characters being flat. Just because we don't know much about them doesn't mean that things didn't happen to them. Unless I have misunderstood your point.
I was trying to give a theory to this. Why would they randomly be immortal? Also my theory is that the Order actually arn't death cultists, they are just misunderstood to be that.AuraTwilight wrote:They were probably just immortal and it sucked, because the Order are basically death cultists.
If it does then fair enough, but I don't remember seeing a day and night cycle to it.AuraTwilight wrote:The Otherworld DOES have day and night though.
Ever think they were just a bunch of nuts? Well maybe they were, but that doesn't... once again, mean that these things didn't happen.AuraTwilight wrote:This theory has now crossed into total incoherency. Ever think the Order is just a bunch of nuts?
I went on to further explain my thoughts on this, I stated that maybe the God didn't create the Real World, maybe she was just trying to open a doorway for the people trapped in the Otherworld to get there. Or from another view point, maybe the God existed previously and was just given power by the people of Silent Hill believing in her.AuraTwilight wrote:Plus, how can a manifestation create the entire Real World?
Just because he said he was joking doesn't mean he actually was, as you said, he's an asshole. Also, this still doesn't disprove that the 'Monsters' could be Angels. Granted some of them might be humans like the book states.AuraTwilight wrote:It's explicitly stated in Lost Memories which monsters are just monsters and which are humans. Not only that, but Vincent said he was joking. He's kind of an asshole.
^^ Fair enoughAuraTwilight wrote:Also, no Heather returns to the real world after you beat God in the Normal Ending. Look at the environment closely when she reunites with Douglas.
Again, I further expanded on this and stated that I believe only the people within the area of Silent Hill were trapped within the Otherworld (Kind of like how everyone who ever goes to the Otherworld is stuck in the general area of Silent Hill.)AuraTwilight wrote:So...how come the ENTIRETY OF HUMANITY is living in the Real World? It looks like God got us here alright, to me.
The rest of the world was happily going along about their business without knowing there was an Otherworld. The God just tried to create a doorway to allow the people trapped there, access to the Real World. Also since the Order had been trapped in the Otherworld for their whole life, maybe they actually believed that the God had created the Real World, since they had never seen it before.
According to the myth:AuraTwilight wrote:According to the myth, God only created two divine servants, the Yellow God and the Red God, analogous to Angels. I'm kind've skeptical that all of the monsters are the same two monsters running around.
God created beings to lead people in obediece to her
The red god, Xuchilbara
The yellow god, Lobsel Vith
Many gods and angels
Take note of the last line, just because all of the Gods and Angels aren't named doesn't mean they don't exist. There could be hundreds of them for all we know.
Again, I expanded on this point in my original post, and stated that maybe simply because we see them as monsters, doesn't mean that they are. I'll repeat what I previously posted, maybe it appears like the 'Monsters/Angels' are 'Attacking' the player, but in reality they are just trying to help. (Exactly like what happens in Jacob's Ladder).AuraTwilight wrote:Not only that, but it contradicts the idea of the monsters being hostile manifestations that, without God, man must fight forever. What, so God's Angels are such monumental dicks that they decide to torture and kill humanity over and over for fun?
For some extra reference here's what Claudia says to Heather:
They've come to witness the begining
The rebirth of paradise, despoiled by mankind
In relation to my theory this could still mean the 'Real World' will be reborn and cleansed (The Apocalypse), since we waste it with pollution and violence etc etc.
But against my theory this could simply mean that mankind doesn't appreciate the 'hell world' lol.
Remember me and your true self as well
Also that which you must become
Irrelevant Alessa drivel
The one who will lead us to paradise
With blood stained hands...
Now again, in relation to my theory this could mean she will be the bringer of the Apocalypse, and remember, the Apocalypse isn't as bad as what some people think it is, the Apocalypse is meant to be a cleansing brought about by God to return the world to a sin free paradise.
Against my theory this could also mean that pain and suffering will be brought upon the world.
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The Otherworld was created by Alessa, but the area of Silent Hill always had a supernatural power, which the Otherworld was pretty much built on top of (I personally speculate that this force is what causes people to be born with psychic powers in the area).As far as I was aware the Otherworld existed way before Alessa came along, I thought Alessa just had the power to control it. I don't understand what you mean about not understanding what people could have had to manifest back then, throughout history there have been stories of demons and monsters etc etc, so surely they would have manifested those? :S
Again, I don't understand what you mean about mythological characters being flat. Just because we don't know much about them doesn't mean that things didn't happen to them. Unless I have misunderstood your point.
Now, let's think about this. Everything we see in the Otherworld is a corruption and exaggeration of things in the Real World, or atleast is the product of an imagination drawing on their experiences in the real world. You're positing an Otherworld populated by a humanity that has never known a real world.
No death, no time, no day and night, or happiness to compare to their suffering....what could they possibly manifest? They've never killed each other, known loss, known community...All they've ever had was some vague "suffering" drawing only from the fact that they were immortal, and not in Paradise (which, by the way, reality can't be. Paradise is a place where you're happy just being there, and God died before creating it.)
And mythological characters are flat. They have no depth. They're fairy tale constructs that do what the story needs them to do and nothing else, having only the motives given to them. Unlike real people, they do not have hidden sides to them, or multiple faces to show the world.
It never gives a reason why. Humanity was just immortal by default, and the myth specifically says this is why they're suffering. Then, what does God do each and every time she's summoned? She kills people. Dahlia LAUGHS when she dies, and comments how "Everyone will die!!!"I was trying to give a theory to this. Why would they randomly be immortal? Also my theory is that the Order actually arn't death cultists, they are just misunderstood to be that.
Excuse me, what do you call it when you leave K. Gordon's house in SH1, and it turns black on the way to Midwich Elementary? It's not an Otherworld shift, because everything else is still the same.If it does then fair enough, but I don't remember seeing a day and night cycle to it.
The Otherworld has day and night, it just shifts irregularly.
Well, the fact that every material we get explaining the beliefs of the cult were created after Claudia reformed the church and CHANGED IT'S BELIEFS to be more in line with her own....yea, probably. What we the player learns is not the original product.Ever think they were just a bunch of nuts? Well maybe they were, but that doesn't... once again, mean that these things didn't happen.
How can the Real World be real with no people living in it? How can God be an actual deity, if it's nothing more than what people expect it to be when it's born? It gives no indication that it's any more real than the other delusions.I went on to further explain my thoughts on this, I stated that maybe the God didn't create the Real World, maybe she was just trying to open a doorway for the people trapped in the Otherworld to get there. Or from another view point, maybe the God existed previously and was just given power by the people of Silent Hill believing in her.
He was pretty much joking. The monsters that ARE human, he doesn't see as monsters. The monsters that aren't human, he probably sees as actual monsters, since he doesn't share Claudia's belief that what's happening is really a good thing and whatnot. On that note, Claudia probably only sees them the way she does because she can't be swayed from her belief that she's creating Paradise.Just because he said he was joking doesn't mean he actually was, as you said, he's an asshole. Also, this still doesn't disprove that the 'Monsters' could be Angels. Granted some of them might be humans like the book states.
The monsters aren't anything but what people think they are; hollow representations. A blank canvas.
And they act nothing like Angels lol.
Except....that's not TRUE. Only people who are very emotionally potent and mentally unstable enter the Otherworld; it's still a pretty densely populated, peaceful resort town in the real world, and people live normal lives there. Not only that, but the people who started the Order never experienced the Otherworld. It'd of been noted if an entire town of people vanished into thin air and came back out of thin air later.Again, I further expanded on this and stated that I believe only the people within the area of Silent Hill were trapped within the Otherworld (Kind of like how everyone who ever goes to the Otherworld is stuck in the general area of Silent Hill.)
The rest of the world was happily going along about their business without knowing there was an Otherworld. The God just tried to create a doorway to allow the people trapped there, access to the Real World. Also since the Order had been trapped in the Otherworld for their whole life, maybe they actually believed that the God had created the Real World, since they had never seen it before.
Your idea is destroying itself. The Order believes all of humanity was stuck in the Otherworld, according to this idea, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out other people were totally fine once they exit and meet people from out of town. And if everyone stuck in the Otherworld was immortal, how can there be only be people who "had been there their entire lives"? The original people who got trapped would still be alive due to their immortality and would've remembered when they got out.
Forgot that last line, my apologies.According to the myth:
God created beings to lead people in obediece to her
The red god, Xuchilbara
The yellow god, Lobsel Vith
Many gods and angels
Take note of the last line, just because all of the Gods and Angels aren't named doesn't mean they don't exist. There could be hundreds of them for all we know.
Yea, they're just trying to help! It's not like they won't KILL THE PLAYER or anything if they don't retaliate or run away.Again, I expanded on this point in my original post, and stated that maybe simply because we see them as monsters, doesn't mean that they are. I'll repeat what I previously posted, maybe it appears like the 'Monsters/Angels' are 'Attacking' the player, but in reality they are just trying to help. (Exactly like what happens in Jacob's Ladder).
You do realize SH3 keeps depicting Claudia as being completely and totally in the wrong about her beliefs, right? Her own father, every other member of the church the game seems to mention, Alessa herself...For some extra reference here's what Claudia says to Heather:
They've come to witness the begining
The rebirth of paradise, despoiled by mankind
In relation to my theory this could still mean the 'Real World' will be reborn and cleansed (The Apocalypse), since we waste it with pollution and violence etc etc.
But against my theory this could simply mean that mankind doesn't appreciate the 'hell world' lol.
Yea, about that. Alessa was PREGNANT with the deity, and went to amazing lengths to prevent it from being born, because she explicitly knew that this thing was going to just kill everyone. She was pregnant with the thing, and Alessa has the ability to read minds, and learn things with psychic powers, and such. I think she's the most reliable person in this situation.
And yet Claudia believes Alessa was a saint who wanted God to be born, and wanted Paradise, and such. She is clearly wrong. If she got the intentions, origins, and nature of her BEST FRIEND wrong, why would Claudia be any more trustworthy when recounting a being she's never even met?
Whenever God shows up, it kills people. The only paradise God is creating is one where there is no suffering, no sickness, no pain...because there's no one left to feel them.Now again, in relation to my theory this could mean she will be the bringer of the Apocalypse, and remember, the Apocalypse isn't as bad as what some people think it is, the Apocalypse is meant to be a cleansing brought about by God to return the world to a sin free paradise.
Against my theory this could also mean that pain and suffering will be brought upon the world.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Where does it say the Otherworld was created by Alessa? If there is proof of this then fair play, however if she did, how did the people before Alessa know the area had supernatural powers?AuraTwilight wrote:The Otherworld was created by Alessa, but the area of Silent Hill always had a supernatural power, which the Otherworld was pretty much built on top of (I personally speculate that this force is what causes people to be born with psychic powers in the area).
Just because they're not in the real world doesn't mean that the Otherworld doesn't draw off of the Real World. It could actually be drawing off of the real world itself and not their experences.AuraTwilight wrote:Now, let's think about this. Everything we see in the Otherworld is a corruption and exaggeration of things in the Real World, or atleast is the product of an imagination drawing on their experiences in the real world. You're positing an Otherworld populated by a humanity that has never known a real world.
Imagine being in solitary confinement for eternity, I'm sure you'd be suffering too.AuraTwilight wrote:No death, no time, no day and night, or happiness to compare to their suffering....what could they possibly manifest? They've never killed each other, known loss, known community...All they've ever had was some vague "suffering" drawing only from the fact that they were immortal, and not in Paradise (which, by the way, reality can't be).
I'll quote the myth again:AuraTwilight wrote:Paradise is a place where you're happy just being there, and God died before creating it.
The rebirth of paradise,
Therefore paradise has already existed.
despoiled by mankind
But was ruined by mankind, which as stated before coincides with the Real World (War, Famine, Poverty, Pollution and all the other sins under the sun )
Also, I stated previously tha maybe the God didn't actually create the real world but created a pathway for the people stuck in the Quagmire. So to them it seemed like she created it Again, I'll quote the myth:
They dispaired, stuck in the eternal quagmire...
We wait in hope for the day when the path to paradise will be opened
Since you didn't create them, how do you know they don't have a background? I can't prove they did, and you can't prove they didn't, therefore this is irrelevant.AuraTwilight wrote:And mythological characters are flat. They have no depth. They're fairy tale constructs that do what the story needs them to do and nothing else, having only the motives given to them. Unlike real people, they do not have hidden sides to them, or multiple faces to show the world.
If humanity was immortal in the real world, I'm pretty sure the real world would be a nice place to live, even if there was no day and night cyle, I for one can say I'd be pretty happy living in the real world forever, and would be much more likely to pray for death if I was immortal in my own personal hell (The Otherworld).AuraTwilight wrote:It never gives a reason why. Humanity was just immortal by default, and the myth specifically says this is why they're suffering.
Furthermore it is more logical that people would be immortal in the Otherworld, than the Real World, surely?
The Apocalypse, like I said.AuraTwilight wrote:Then, what does God do each and every time she's summoned? She kills people. Dahlia LAUGHS when she dies, and comments how "Everyone will die!!!"
As I stated previously, who's to say all of mankind dying is a bad thing? And yes, while humanity wouldn't want to removed from existance, that doesn't mean that in the bigger picture, it wouldn't be better for the planet. Which is what the apocalypse is, as I'll reference once again:
The rebirth of paradise, despoiled by mankind
The 'shift' you are referring to occurs in the Foggy World, not the Otherworld. This fits perfectly into my theory, if the Foggy World is an 'Incomplete Paradise/Real World', then it would stand to reason that the day and night cycle is broken, since the God died before she finished.AuraTwilight wrote:Excuse me, what do you call it when you leave K. Gordon's house in SH1, and it turns black on the way to Midwich Elementary? It's not an Otherworld shift, because everything else is still the same.
The Otherworld has day and night, it just shifts irregularly.
Again, just because something changes doesn't mean it's not true. Furthermore we don't have the 'original product' so we don't know how much she actually changed.AuraTwilight wrote:Well, the fact that every material we get explaining the beliefs of the cult were created after Claudia reformed the church and CHANGED IT'S BELIEFS to be more in line with her own....yea, probably. What we the player learns is not the original product.
I already explained this previously, I never said there were no people in the Real World, I said that maybe some people in Silent Hill are trapped in the Otherworld, not ALL of the worlds people. Like I said, if you were stuck inside a box for your entire life with no connection to the outside world what so ever, you would believe that the box was the entire world.AuraTwilight wrote:How can the Real World be real with no people living in it?
There are stories/myths, in which 'delusions' can become real by the power of thought. For example Tinkerbell (yes I am talking the fairy from Peter Pan), she 'dies' when the words "There's no such thing as Fairies", are said. Yet she gains power when people say "I do believe in Fairies". Therefore fairies can only exist if people believe in them. Which could very well be the same for the Gods of Silent Hill, given that both are stories.AuraTwilight wrote:How can God be an actual deity, if it's nothing more than what people expect it to be when it's born? It gives no indication that it's any more real than the other delusions.
You're saying that her belief is wrong based on your beliefs, who's to say your beliefs are right?AuraTwilight wrote:He was pretty much joking. The monsters that ARE human, he doesn't see as monsters. The monsters that aren't human, he probably sees as actual monsters, since he doesn't share Claudia's belief that what's happening is really a good thing and whatnot. On that note, Claudia probably only sees them the way she does because she can't be swayed from her belief that she's creating Paradise.
Also Vincent as you said, is an asshole, who, in my opinion, is overly selfish, therefore it would stand to reason that if someone told him they were going to create paradise by removing mankind from the world, he wouldn't want to die.
And if that's the case, the angels aren't anything but waht people think they are; hollow representations, A blank canvas. They might even look like monsters to some people.AuraTwilight wrote:The monsters aren't anything but what people think they are; hollow representations. A blank canvas.
Have you seen the film Jacob's Ladder?AuraTwilight wrote:And they act nothing like Angels lol.
PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER_SHOW PRIME_BBCODE_SPOILER:
The whole film is spent depicting Angels as monsters, until he realises at the end.
As I previously stated, I never said that everyone was stuck there. Also if only people who are very emotionally potent and mentally unstable enter the Otherworld, then surely it would stand to reason that these people would be trapped there, while in the real world, the rest of people live normal lives, oblivious to the Otherworld.AuraTwilight wrote:Except....that's not TRUE. Only people who are very emotionally potent and mentally unstable enter the Otherworld; it's still a pretty densely populated, peaceful resort town in the real world, and people live normal lives there. Not only that, but the people who started the Order never experienced the Otherworld. It'd of been noted if an entire town of people vanished into thin air and came back out of thin air later.
As I previously stated, I never said that everyone was stuck there.AuraTwilight wrote:Your idea is destroying itself. The Order believes all of humanity was stuck in the Otherworld, according to this idea
But my theory states that the trapped people never escaped, because God died before this happened, so they got stuck in the Foggy World.AuraTwilight wrote:but it doesn't take a genius to figure out other people were totally fine once they exit and meet people from out of town. And if everyone stuck in the Otherworld was immortal, how can there be only be people who "had been there their entire lives"? The original people who got trapped would still be alive due to their immortality and would've remembered when they got out.
As I already said, just because it looks like Heather is being attacked/killed, doesn't mean this is so. Just like at the start, where she dies and wakes up in the real world.AuraTwilight wrote:Yea, they're just trying to help! It's not like they won't KILL THE PLAYER or anything if they don't retaliate or run away.
Just because SH3 depicts that she is completely wrong, doesn't mean it is so, not everything is black and white in Silent Hill. Also you even said yourself that all of the members of the Order are completely nuts, so by your theory, it would make more sense for atleast one member to be sane (Claudia).AuraTwilight wrote:You do realize SH3 keeps depicting Claudia as being completely and totally in the wrong about her beliefs, right? Her own father, every other member of the church the game seems to mention, Alessa herself...
Furthermore would you trust a woman who says she's going to bring about Paradise, or a girl, who by your theory, tortures and kills people in her own personal hell after being burnt alive by that very same Order?
Again as I have stated previously, just because the God is going to kill everyone, doesn't mean it is bad.AuraTwilight wrote:Yea, about that. Alessa was PREGNANT with the deity, and went to amazing lengths to prevent it from being born, because she explicitly knew that this thing was going to just kill everyone. She was pregnant with the thing, and Alessa has the ability to read minds, and learn things with psychic powers, and such. I think she's the most reliable person in this situation.
Claudia never states at what point in time she is referring to. Alessa could have wanted all of those things before she was burnt alive.AuraTwilight wrote:And yet Claudia believes Alessa was a saint who wanted God to be born, and wanted Paradise, and such. She is clearly wrong. If she got the intentions, origins, and nature of her BEST FRIEND wrong, why would Claudia be any more trustworthy when recounting a being she's never even met?
People create, suffering, sickness and pain, so therefore it makes perfect sense for the only true paradise to be one with no people. Just because there is no one there to experience it, does not mean it is not paradise.AuraTwilight wrote:Whenever God shows up, it kills people. The only paradise God is creating is one where there is no suffering, no sickness, no pain...because there's no one left to feel them.
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It was stated in supplemental materials, and it IS commented that whatever supernatural force was there grew more powerful after the end of SH1.Where does it say the Otherworld was created by Alessa? If there is proof of this then fair play, however if she did, how did the people before Alessa know the area had supernatural powers?
As for how people knew it was special? Well, Mary said the place was calm and sacred to her, and Native Americans thought they could speak with the dead here. Wouldn't take a genius to conclude that before all this started, Silent Hill was a more pure, calm place of spiritual tranquility, and then it got fucked with into what it is now.
The Otherworld is a world created and shaped by the minds of people within it. If someone has never been in the Real World, the Otherworld they experience won't have any basis in the Real World. If you're going to disregard this consistent, never-broken rule, why even bother speculating they were in the Otherworld?Just because they're not in the real world doesn't mean that the Otherworld doesn't draw off of the Real World. It could actually be drawing off of the real world itself and not their experences.
If they were in solitary confinement, how did the Man and Woman of Snakes and Reeds meet up? How did they know others were suffering?Imagine being in solitary confinement for eternity, I'm sure you'd be suffering too.
You're reading into the semantics incorrectly. The legend also says that God died before she could create Paradise. Seeing as Paradise doesn't exist, "create" is the only thing that really works.I'll quote the myth again:
The rebirth of paradise,
Therefore paradise has already existed.
despoiled by mankind
But was ruined by mankind, which as stated before coincides with the Real World (War, Famine, Poverty, Pollution and all the other sins under the sun Razz)
Also, I stated previously tha maybe the God didn't actually create the real world but created a pathway for the people stuck in the Quagmire. So to them it seemed like she created it Again, I'll quote the myth:
They dispaired, stuck in the eternal quagmire...
We wait in hope for the day when the path to paradise will be opened
Is the future a physical place that currently exists? Because I've heard the phrase "the path to the future will be opened" too.
They are made up characters, therefore anything the storyteller doesn't tell us about the characters doesn't exist.Since you didn't create them, how do you know they don't have a background? I can't prove they did, and you can't prove they didn't, therefore this is irrelevant.
The Order believes you can impregnate seven year olds by lighting them on fire, and you're trying to argue a point based on common sense and logic?If humanity was immortal in the real world, I'm pretty sure the real world would be a nice place to live, even if there was no day and night cyle, I for one can say I'd be pretty happy living in the real world forever, and would be much more likely to pray for death if I was immortal in my own personal hell (The Otherworld).
Furthermore it is more logical that people would be immortal in the Otherworld, than the Real World, surely?
They're sadomasochists who've lost touch with the real world; why do you think they have an affinity for the Otherworld in the first place?
Right, so killing everyone then. Thanks, God. Why bother opening the path to a physical paradise if you're not gonna let anyone in it?The Apocalypse, like I said.
As I stated previously, who's to say all of mankind dying is a bad thing? And yes, while humanity wouldn't want to removed from existance, that doesn't mean that in the bigger picture, it wouldn't be better for the planet. Which is what the apocalypse is, as I'll reference once again:
The rebirth of paradise, despoiled by mankind
I'm personally of the theory that the Foggy World and the Otherworld are the same plane, seeing as how they follow pretty much identical metaphysics. Even if they are different, though, The Otherworld shows time. It possesses night skies in some games, and setting suns in others.The 'shift' you are referring to occurs in the Foggy World, not the Otherworld. This fits perfectly into my theory, if the Foggy World is an 'Incomplete Paradise/Real World', then it would stand to reason that the day and night cycle is broken, since the God died before she finished.
We know she changed it enough to make Alessa into a perfect divine Saint who practically got more worship than God. That's pretty significant. Significant enough to make me disregard everything Claudia believes as her self-imposed dogma.Again, just because something changes doesn't mean it's not true. Furthermore we don't have the 'original product' so we don't know how much she actually changed.
I already explained why this wouldn't work. The Order was started by European settlers who seemed to have the majority of their beliefs before they even came to Silent Hill, and they never disappeared for any length of time.I already explained this previously, I never said there were no people in the Real World, I said that maybe some people in Silent Hill are trapped in the Otherworld, not ALL of the worlds people. Like I said, if you were stuck inside a box for your entire life with no connection to the outside world what so ever, you would believe that the box was the entire world.
Bad example. Fairies in Peter Pan aren't delusions, they just feed off belief like a food. Regardless, Silent Hill as a series consistently depicts the manifestations as existing in the Otherworld, but unable to exist outside of it. The Maria Ending, for instance, heavily implies James isn't going to be able to leave, and James' belief isn't enough to make Maria "real."There are stories/myths, in which 'delusions' can become real by the power of thought. For example Tinkerbell (yes I am talking the fairy from Peter Pan), she 'dies' when the words "There's no such thing as Fairies", are said. Yet she gains power when people say "I do believe in Fairies". Therefore fairies can only exist if people believe in them. Which could very well be the same for the Gods of Silent Hill, given that both are stories.
Good thing my beliefs have officially published evidence, huh? Even still, Heather/Alessa herself refutes all of Claudia's claims. Who's more believable here, Claudia, or the person who was pregnant with God and has probably seen the future/read God's mind with her powers for all we know?You're saying that her belief is wrong based on your beliefs, who's to say your beliefs are right?
Also Vincent as you said, is an asshole, who, in my opinion, is overly selfish, therefore it would stand to reason that if someone told him they were going to create paradise by removing mankind from the world, he wouldn't want to die.
Then they're not angels. They don't exist before someone conjures them.And if that's the case, the angels aren't anything but waht people think they are; hollow representations, A blank canvas. They might even look like monsters to some people.
Jacob's Ladder is entirely irrelevant. The angel/monsters never cut him open and make him bleed and die. If Heather lets herself be attacked by the monsters, she fucking dies, and Valtiel has to come in and revive her. She'll even comment on that at certain save points. You can't argue that the protagonists only BELIEVE they're being attacked; monsters attack them before the protagonists even realize a monster is behind it, such as the sneak-attacks and first monster encounters.Just because Heather believes that she is being attacked by Monsters, doesn't mean that she is. Especially since Vincent kindly spends his time making Heather believe that Claudia is a baaad person.
Oh, and the protagonists are actually, physically hurt by the attacks.
Then where the fuck are they? How did they start a huge religion telling their origin myth in the Real World? Why the hell does the legend speak as if they live in the Real World?But my theory states that the trapped people never escaped, because God died before this happened, so they got stuck in the Foggy World.
Your logic sucks. So she doesn't die from a dream, so that means the monsters she encounters in the waking world won't hurt her? Besides, in the dream she dies from getting hit by a goddamned roller coaster, not a monster. Is the roller coaster an angel, too? Was it trying to help Heather get to the bottom? Maybe it wanted to carry her soul up to heaven at the top of the loop-de-loop?As I already said, just because it looks like Heather is being attacked/killed, doesn't mean this is so. Just like at the start, where she dies and wakes up in the real world.
The game, all the official materials relating to the game, and pretty much everything officially published calls Claudia wrong. Furthermore, the more mild and grounded members of the church, like Vincent and that one church-going woman in the recording, claims that Claudia is scary and unnerving, and she FUCKING KILLS PEOPLE who badmouth her religion or are simply in the way of her goals. She is not sane by any stretch; if anything she's one of the most insane members of the church.Just because SH3 depicts that she is completely wrong, doesn't mean it is so, not everything is black and white in Silent Hill. Also you even said yourself that all of the members of the Order are completely nuts, so by your theory, it would make more sense for atleast one member to be sane (Claudia).
Furthermore would you trust a woman who says she's going to bring about Paradise, or a girl, who by your theory, tortures and kills people in her own personal hell after being burnt alive by that very same Order?
Heather has never tortured people, and has never killed anyone for anything other than self-defense and perfectly reasonable, understandable revenge, and even then, she makes it pretty swift. Claudia has literally stabbed people in the back for mocking God, and has killed a completely innocent man simply to get Heather full of hatred.
Claudia's motives do not make her right, justified, correct, or even moral. By that logic, every villain that talks about creating Utopia is in the right, so...uh...how'd you like 1984?
If killing the entire human race isn't the EPITOME of bad, what the hell is?Again as I have stated previously, just because the God is going to kill everyone, doesn't mean it is bad.
Alessa never wanted them. All she ever wanted was Dahlia's love, as she says herself.Claudia never states at what point in time she is referring to. Alessa could have wanted all of those things before she was burnt alive.
Paradise is something subjective, a value imposed by people. No people, no paradise. A paradise has to have things living in it.People create, suffering, sickness and pain, so therefore it makes perfect sense for the only true paradise to be one with no people. Just because there is no one there to experience it, does not mean it is not paradise.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Surely if the power grew more powerful at the end of SH1 it would make sense that it was already there before.AuraTwilight wrote:It was stated in supplemental materials, and it IS commented that whatever supernatural force was there grew more powerful after the end of SH1.
Mary said the place was calm and sacred to her, coz it was a nice place to be, it was a resort town after all. She wasn't meaning anything supernatural.AuraTwilight wrote:As for how people knew it was special? Well, Mary said the place was calm and sacred to her, and Native Americans thought they could speak with the dead here. Wouldn't take a genius to conclude that before all this started, Silent Hill was a more pure, calm place of spiritual tranquility, and then it got fucked with into what it is now.
Also who's to say that just because they were speaking to the dead that more wasn't there? The Otherworld is another plane all together, just because people couldn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't exist.
This isn't a fact, there is no proof of this anywhere. Just because the Otherworld looks like the Real World in some aspects doesn't mean you have to have seen the Real World for it to be so.AuraTwilight wrote:The Otherworld is a world created and shaped by the minds of people within it. If someone has never been in the Real World, the Otherworld they experience won't have any basis in the Real World. If you're going to disregard this consistent, never-broken rule, why even bother speculating they were in the Otherworld?
The myth never says that the man and woman met up, just like it never said they knew that anyone else was suffering. They could have both been acting on their own. Again, just because it says God was born from these two people does not mean that they had to have sex or anything like that.AuraTwilight wrote:If they were in solitary confinement, how did the Man and Woman of Snakes and Reeds meet up? How did they know others were suffering?
As I said, if the Order was trapped inside the Otherworld and had never seen the real world, they would believe God did create the Paradise, when infact she could have just tried to opened a pathway, to the pre-existing paradise, which she failed to do so.AuraTwilight wrote:You're reading into the semantics incorrectly. The legend also says that God died before she could create Paradise. Seeing as Paradise doesn't exist, "create" is the only thing that really works.
Sort of like if you had a time machine, you could pretend you had invented any number of present day inventions because they would have never seen them.
I don't see what your argument has to do with this, time and a different plane of existance are seperate entities. Also, since you seem to want to bring up a long running physics debate. There are theories that state all of time is predetermined, so yes, you could claim that the future already exists.AuraTwilight wrote:Is the future a physical place that currently exists? Because I've heard the phrase "the path to the future will be opened" too.
That simply isn't true. There is a lot of information that can be gleaned by reading inbetween the lines.AuraTwilight wrote:They are made up characters, therefore anything the storyteller doesn't tell us about the characters doesn't exist.
Indeed, the order believes this.... and it worked, did it not?AuraTwilight wrote:The Order believes you can impregnate seven year olds by lighting them on fire, and you're trying to argue a point based on common sense and logic?
The myth pretty much gives us the information that a person needs to be in pain and suffering for God to be born, I think burning someone alive would be enough for this to work.
Again, this is your personal opinion, my theory takes a differnt view on them. I'm not trying to say whether they're right or wrong. I'm simply trying to point out it might not be as black or white as it appears.AuraTwilight wrote:They're sadomasochists who've lost touch with the real world; why do you think they have an affinity for the Otherworld in the first place?
I never said anything about a physical paradise and neither does the myth. To give you an example, The 7 Days of Creation is perfect:AuraTwilight wrote:Right, so killing everyone then. Thanks, God. Why bother opening the path to a physical paradise if you're not gonna let anyone in it?
The Garden of Eden was created as a paradise before any of humanity was allowed anywhere near it.
As you say, different skies in different games, therefore the different people have different skies, this does not mean that the time passes within the Otherworld. If this is the case, each different person is stuck at a different time, where time in this sense, refers to the position of the sun, rather than the physical time of the universe (past, present and future), so to them, time would appear to stand still.AuraTwilight wrote:I'm personally of the theory that the Foggy World and the Otherworld are the same plane, seeing as how they follow pretty much identical metaphysics. Even if they are different, though, The Otherworld shows time. It possesses night skies in some games, and setting suns in others.
Again, this is your personal opinion, and does not make it true. Like I said my theory views it from a different perspective.AuraTwilight wrote:We know she changed it enough to make Alessa into a perfect divine Saint who practically got more worship than God. That's pretty significant. Significant enough to make me disregard everything Claudia believes as her self-imposed dogma.
If the Order was started by European settlers then that would mean that the entire world was in an eternal quagmire with no day or night. However, if this was true then I would think there would be more believers than the few in Silent Hill.AuraTwilight wrote:I already explained why this wouldn't work. The Order was started by European settlers who seemed to have the majority of their beliefs before they even came to Silent Hill, and they never disappeared for any length of time.
My theory of only a few people from Silent Hill being stuck in the eternal quagmire explains this. But again, personal opinion.
Beings don't have to be 'real' to appear so, if what appear to be monsters are just delusions then why can they hurt the player? (If they are doing so at all). It's all to do with how the mind percieves things.AuraTwilight wrote:Bad example. Fairies in Peter Pan aren't delusions, they just feed off belief like a food. Regardless, Silent Hill as a series consistently depicts the manifestations as existing in the Otherworld, but unable to exist outside of it. The Maria Ending, for instance, heavily implies James isn't going to be able to leave, and James' belief isn't enough to make Maria "real."
Just because Alessa has read God's mind and seen that it is going to kill all of humanity does not mean that it is a bad thing. As I've said several times now, the Apocalypse is an act of God and brings about a sin-free land of paradise, in the grand scheme of things, this is good, but obviously for humanity this would seem bad because we would be dead.AuraTwilight wrote:Good thing my beliefs have officially published evidence, huh? Even still, Heather/Alessa herself refutes all of Claudia's claims. Who's more believable here, Claudia, or the person who was pregnant with God and has probably seen the future/read God's mind with her powers for all we know?
As I said previously, just because something isn't real in a none supernatural sense, doesn't mean that it cannot act in a certain way.AuraTwilight wrote:Then they're not angels. They don't exist before someone conjures them.
Yet he still sees them as monsters and believes they are trying to do bad things to him.AuraTwilight wrote:Jacob's Ladder is entirely irrelevant. The angel/monsters never cut him open and make him bleed and die.
Valtiel has to come and revive her..... Valtiel the angel right? After all, an Angel is simply a servant of God. Not a being with big white fluffy wings and a halo like you seem to be imagining. Even in the Bible, the Angels aren't as nice as certain media makes them out to be, they're warriors, and there was an Angel of Death and even Satan was an Angel.AuraTwilight wrote:If Heather lets herself be attacked by the monsters, she fucking dies, and Valtiel has to come in and revive her. She'll even comment on that at certain save points. You can't argue that the protagonists only BELIEVE they're being attacked; monsters attack them before the protagonists even realize a monster is behind it, such as the sneak-attacks and first monster encounters.
Also, in relation to the sneak attacks and first monster encounters, if Heather thought she was going to be attacked she would see them as monsters straight away regardless of if she had seen them before. Furthermore, in this respect, Jacob's Ladder is relevant too, because he doesn't see the monsters as Angels just because he has never seen them before, he still sees them as Monsters until he has realised that they're Angels.
How do you know? In my theory they are not and only appear to be hurt. This again, is simply personal opinion.AuraTwilight wrote:Oh, and the protagonists are actually, physically hurt by the attacks.
The myth doesn't speak as if they live in the real world to me. This again, is simply personal opinion.AuraTwilight wrote:Then where the fuck are they? How did they start a huge religion telling their origin myth in the Real World? Why the hell does the legend speak as if they live in the Real World?
You said I was insulting your intelligence in the other topic, yet you full on patronise me here.AuraTwilight wrote:Your logic sucks. So she doesn't die from a dream, so that means the monsters she encounters in the waking world won't hurt her? Besides, in the dream she dies from getting hit by a goddamned roller coaster, not a monster. Is the roller coaster an angel, too? Was it trying to help Heather get to the bottom? Maybe it wanted to carry her soul up to heaven at the top of the loop-de-loop?
In relation to this, Harry died in his 'dream' in SH1, as he was 'killed by monsters'. He still 'woke up'. Who's to say she wasn't revived by Valtiel in the intro scene aswell?.
Again, just because she is made to look wrong, does not mean this is so. The phrase 'They laughed at Galileo' comes to mind. Also in regards to her killing people and being scary. This has nothing to do with whether she is right or wrong. If she feels that Paradise is worth killing some people for, then maybe it is? I'm not saying that killing is morally right (this is a different debate), but in the grand scheme of the Gods, if they exist, it might be the best path to Paradise.AuraTwilight wrote:The game, all the official materials relating to the game, and pretty much everything officially published calls Claudia wrong. Furthermore, the more mild and grounded members of the church, like Vincent and that one church-going woman in the recording, claims that Claudia is scary and unnerving, and she FUCKING KILLS PEOPLE who badmouth her religion or are simply in the way of her goals. She is not sane by any stretch; if anything she's one of the most insane members of the church.
However, again, this is just an opinion. My theory simply takes a different view than yours on things.
If the Order believes that filling a persons soul with hatred and pain helps with the birth of God, then surely Claudia is doing a pretty good job. Like I said above, if Claudia wants to sacrifice herself and some other people for a Paradise, this does not make her wrong, and just to be clear, I don't mean in a moral way.AuraTwilight wrote:Heather has never tortured people, and has never killed anyone for anything other than self-defense and perfectly reasonable, understandable revenge, and even then, she makes it pretty swift. Claudia has literally stabbed people in the back for mocking God, and has killed a completely innocent man simply to get Heather full of hatred.
Also, this isn't true, as I stated above. Plus almost every villian acts on their beliefs, and all beliefs can be analysed, whether you agree with them or not is another matter.AuraTwilight wrote:Claudia's motives do not make her right, justified, correct, or even moral. By that logic, every villain that talks about creating Utopia is in the right, so...uh...how'd you like 1984?
In regards to your 1984 reference. What we are talking about here is a religious Paradise, not a Political one. There is a big difference.
This is personal opinion, just because you don't want to die, doesn't mean we shouldn't for the well being of the planet. This is a massively debated subject, especially with the global warming scares.AuraTwilight wrote:If killing the entire human race isn't the EPITOME of bad, what the hell is?
This is almost exactly the same as wanting them. As you say, she wanted Dahlia's love, so it stands to reason she acted on Dahlia's beliefs to get her to love her. This would certainly look like she wanted them to Claudia, who only knew Alessa before she was burnt.AuraTwilight wrote:Alessa never wanted them. All she ever wanted was Dahlia's love, as she says herself.
This is an unanswerable debate, because if there is such a thing as God, then surely it is He who defines what Paradise is, and not you, or me or any other human being.AuraTwilight wrote:Paradise is something subjective, a value imposed by people. No people, no paradise. A paradise has to have things living in it.
Also since paradise is 'ruined' by humanity then it stands to reason that at some point, if God does exist, He would decide that the two cannot co-exist and would have to make a choice, humanity or paradise, in my theory and The Orders belief, He chose Paradise.
Anyways, this is the last reply I'm making on this topic, because no one else seems to be getting involved and I seem to have to keep re-typing all the same explainations and ideas in every post. The idea of the topic was to get people thinking about things from a different view point, not to cause arguments and to be sweared at/ridiculed. Hell, if this is what you want, you win .
I hope people enjoyed the 'debate'.
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The power being there, and the Otherworld being there, aren't the same thing. The Otherworld exists because there's a supernatural power already present. Bear in mind Walter creates his own, separate Otherworld in SH4 that's not connected to Silent Hill's, and yet Silent Hill is stated to have it's own separate power besides. Such as the ability to "call" people post-SH1, or, as in my earlier speculation, perhaps the ability to bestow psychic powers to newborns.Surely if the power grew more powerful at the end of SH1 it would make sense that it was already there before.
The natives believed it was a sacred place with supernatural properties, and Mary's calm, peaceful attraction to the place is clearly something deep within her soul. To the point that her spirit sticks around there after death, even though she didn't die in Silent Hill. Perhaps Mary can subconsciously sense Silent Hill's original, uncorrupted power?Mary said the place was calm and sacred to her, coz it was a nice place to be, it was a resort town after all. She wasn't meaning anything supernatural.
Guidebooks written by the developers have stated that Alessa created the Otherworld. I tried to argue it existed beforehand as well and lost miserably, dude.Also who's to say that just because they were speaking to the dead that more wasn't there? The Otherworld is another plane all together, just because people couldn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't exist.
It's a fact because everything we ever see in the Otherworld is shaped by the perceptions of the person manifesting the environment, such as Alessa or the protagonist. Hell, it's implied Angela's walking around her own house instead of the town after the first meeting with her, and we encounter too many impossible spaces to count; it's highly unlikely that the environments seen are super-imposed like you're suggesting; people see the majority of the town as it is in reality. People see the town because that's what they expect/want.This isn't a fact, there is no proof of this anywhere. Just because the Otherworld looks like the Real World in some aspects doesn't mean you have to have seen the Real World for it to be so.
I'd wager that if you knocked someone out in like....Canada, then carried then to the Otherworld, and woke them up, they wouldn't see the town of Silent Hill in their conjured reality.
Er....yea it does. Check out the painting with the two of them together. And how they both prayed for God to come down. It's subtly hinted and speculated by some, by the way, that Alessa and Walter are modern counterparts to the Man and Woman, and that the only reason God is born as weak as it is is because the two need to perform their rituals together.The myth never says that the man and woman met up, just like it never said they knew that anyone else was suffering. They could have both been acting on their own. Again, just because it says God was born from these two people does not mean that they had to have sex or anything like that.
So God lied to them? Alright, fine, it's consistent with Silent Hill's God apparently being the biggest load of asshole in the universe.As I said, if the Order was trapped inside the Otherworld and had never seen the real world, they would believe God did create the Paradise, when infact she could have just tried to opened a pathway, to the pre-existing paradise, which she failed to do so.
Sort of like if you had a time machine, you could pretend you had invented any number of present day inventions because they would have never seen them.
I was giving an example of how you're clearly warping semantics beyond the actual intention.I don't see what your argument has to do with this, time and a different plane of existance are seperate entities. Also, since you seem to want to bring up a long running physics debate. There are theories that state all of time is predetermined, so yes, you could claim that the future already exists.
If it exists inbetween the lines, it's something the storyteller told us. It doesn't change that most mythological characters are flat archetypes; that's their purpose. Goldilocks is some blonde bitch who just breaks into someone else's home and eats their porridge and sleeps in their beds. Then when she's caught by goddamn bears she freaks out and hits the road. We receive nothing else to her character.That simply isn't true. There is a lot of information that can be gleaned by reading inbetween the lines.
I would argue it only worked because of a combination of Alessa's own belief and her psychic powers. The cult has burned many, many women before, and they were all failures.Indeed, the order believes this.... and it worked, did it not?
The myth pretty much gives us the information that a person needs to be in pain and suffering for God to be born, I think burning someone alive would be enough for this to work.
The evidence agrees with my opinion, then, because being sadomasochistic lunatics is pretty much the defining trait of the Order in everything involving them. They're not really painted in a "gray" light like this. Even if their religion is correct, they're still sadomasochistic death-seeking lunatics.Again, this is your personal opinion, my theory takes a differnt view on them. I'm not trying to say whether they're right or wrong. I'm simply trying to point out it might not be as black or white as it appears.
Of course, one could probably argue this about all fundamentalists.
If they're creations of someone's deluded imagination, then they're not holy angels created by a deity in the creation times. You can't have it both ways, and dropping the first would be contradicting the word of the creators themselves.As I said previously, just because something isn't real in a none supernatural sense, doesn't mean that it cannot act in a certain way.
Whatever it is, the Order believes Paradise is something with "gates" and that "has a road to it", yadda yadda. When it's created, it's a physical place.I never said anything about a physical paradise and neither does the myth. To give you an example, The 7 Days of Creation is perfect:
The Garden of Eden was created as a paradise before any of humanity was allowed anywhere near it.
The Order WAS started by European settlers, but they're a small cult, and the whole world wasn't in this eternal quagmire. Looks like this theory of yours has a HUGE HOLE, as it can't deal with the Order's real-world origins.If the Order was started by European settlers then that would mean that the entire world was in an eternal quagmire with no day or night. However, if this was true then I would think there would be more believers than the few in Silent Hill.
My theory of only a few people from Silent Hill being stuck in the eternal quagmire explains this. But again, personal opinion.
They can hurt them because they were physically created. The Otherworld is a physical place you can physically vanish into. Although what you see is a creation of your mind, these creations are given flesh, life, form, and substance. They're not phantasmic illusions. Essentially, the Otherworld makes people into Reality Warpers.Beings don't have to be 'real' to appear so, if what appear to be monsters are just delusions then why can they hurt the player? (If they are doing so at all). It's all to do with how the mind percieves things.
Anyone who doesn't see the destruction of all living beings as a bad thing is severely mentally ill.Just because Alessa has read God's mind and seen that it is going to kill all of humanity does not mean that it is a bad thing. As I've said several times now, the Apocalypse is an act of God and brings about a sin-free land of paradise, in the grand scheme of things, this is good, but obviously for humanity this would seem bad because we would be dead.
But they never actually do physical damage to him. If the Silent Hill monsters hurt you, though, you fucking die. And you can't use the "Game Over screen never happens" excuse, because what about Kauffman being attacked by a dog? What about all the SH1 nurses? Or Cybil? What about monsters in SH3, which are stated as being manifestations of Alessa's suicidal will? What about SH4, where their purpose is pretty much to kill Henry? What about Homecoming, where monsters kill people left and right and up and down?Yet he still sees them as monsters and believes they are trying to do bad things to him.
You can't argue that the monsters are non-aggressive, harmless entities without disregarding pretty much entire portions of several games.
The people trapped in the immortal quagmire were given death and time, and according to you, they formed the Order in the real world. Looks like they live in the real world to me.The myth doesn't speak as if they live in the real world to me. This again, is simply personal opinion.
Calling someone and idiot and claiming their argument uses shitty logic are two entirely different things. Harry's 'dream' took place after he already entered the Otherworld. However, Heather is in the Real World until she enters the bathroom, and while with Harry's 'dream' you can imagine that he just walked up to somewhere, died, then got revived by Alessa in a safe place, Heather doesn't have this sort of mesh with reality. What she dreams about didn't happen yet. It's a vision of the future, and a hint at her powers and true identity.You said I was insulting your intelligence in the other topic, yet you full on patronise me here.
In relation to this, Harry died in his 'dream' in SH1, as he was 'killed by monsters'. He still 'woke up'. Who's to say she wasn't revived by Valtiel in the intro scene aswell?.
If the people who invented her viewpoint say her viewpoint is wrong, then her viewpoint is wrong.Again, just because she is made to look wrong, does not mean this is so. The phrase 'They laughed at Galileo' comes to mind. Also in regards to her killing people and being scary. This has nothing to do with whether she is right or wrong. If she feels that Paradise is worth killing some people for, then maybe it is? I'm not saying that killing is morally right (this is a different debate), but in the grand scheme of the Gods, if they exist, it might be the best path to Paradise.
However, again, this is just an opinion. My theory simply takes a different view than yours on things.
Heather refutes this herself, so just go listen to her; she explains why this doesn't work in multiple conversations with Claudia.If the Order believes that filling a persons soul with hatred and pain helps with the birth of God, then surely Claudia is doing a pretty good job. Like I said above, if Claudia wants to sacrifice herself and some other people for a Paradise, this does not make her wrong, and just to be clear, I don't mean in a moral way.
Oh grow up. I'm not ridiculing you, and I swear like a sailor even in a good mood. It's not my fault your theory had a lot of holes.Also, this isn't true, as I stated above. Plus almost every villian acts on their beliefs, and all beliefs can be analysed, whether you agree with them or not is another matter.
In regards to your 1984 reference. What we are talking about here is a religious Paradise, not a Political one. There is a big difference.
Utopia Justifies the Means, as a trope, doesn't distinquish between Utopias.
Genocide is wrong. Killing sentient beings is wrong. Wiping out civilizations is wrong.This is personal opinion, just because you don't want to die, doesn't mean we shouldn't for the well being of the planet. This is a massively debated subject, especially with the global warming scares.
Also, considering the way God seems to do things, it probably wouldn't leave the planet around either. It's not like God just kills humans and then springs up gardens; it burns everything to the fucking ground.
This isn't the case. Flashbacks show Alessa resisting Dahlia at every turn. She loves Dahlia, but she doesn't want to betray her moral principles over it.This is almost exactly the same as wanting them. As you say, she wanted Dahlia's love, so it stands to reason she acted on Dahlia's beliefs to get her to love her. This would certainly look like she wanted them to Claudia, who only knew Alessa before she was burnt.
Claudia also saw the events of SH1 in a psychic vision and still misinterprets it. She's just crazy. Appealing to post-burning Alessa's character won't work.
According to Heather and the Developers, there's no such thing as a perfect Paradise, only what is Paradise for one person.This is an unanswerable debate, because if there is such a thing as God, then surely it is He who defines what Paradise is, and not you, or me or any other human being.
Nothing ever said humans ruined Paradise. God died before she even has a chance to make it.Also since paradise is 'ruined' by humanity then it stands to reason that at some point, if God does exist, He would decide that the two cannot co-exist and would have to make a choice, humanity or paradise, in my theory and The Orders belief, He chose Paradise.
Anyways, this is the last reply I'm making on this topic, because no one else seems to be getting involved and I seem to have to keep re-typing all the same explainations and ideas in every post. The idea of the topic was to get people thinking about things from a different view point, not to cause arguments and to be sweared at/ridiculed. Hell, if this is what you want, you win
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Interesting. I like your theory about the 'Angels'. But, some things just don't fit in.
To sum it up:
Man stuck in 'Otherworld'
Man created 'God' to escape.
God tried to created a pathway to the 'Real World/Paradise'
God failed and thus only allowed the people to pass halfway and they got stuck in the 'Foggy World')
God needs to be reborn to allow the trapped people to pass from the 'Foggy World' into the 'Real World'? (I'm not too sure about this part.... because I can't remember if you encounter Claudia or Vincent in the 'Real World'.
Also:
Maybe the monsters are actually Angels trying to help keep Heather out of the 'Foggy/Otherworlds', however Heather misunderstands (Like Jacob's Ladder, it wouldn't be the first reference ) and sees them as monsters trying to kill her. Hence why Vincent says "They look like monsters to you?" and at the start of the game when she dies, she wakes up back in the 'Real World'.
This could also explain why there are fewer 'Monsters/Angels' in the 'Foggy World' because the 'Monsters/Angels' see it as a lower priority to keep people out of it?