"What are you wearing these for?" *spoilers*

[BloodRedScarlet]

You know the scene when you meet Dahlia and she's like: "What are you wearing these for?"

I can't help but think maybe it's related to the Wicked and Weak ending. In that ending, Dahlia slaps Harry and his glasses fall off. I wonder if maybe to little Cheryl...she took it as her Mother didn't like her dad's glasses? And as such, Young Dahlia also does not approve of glasses.

I'm going out on a limb here.

[SilentWren]

I think it's that, and also yet another reason to get smexy Dahlia to act all coquettish.

[Typographenia]

Yeah, I agree with Wren.

She's just getting to the point.

[MariaRising]

Hmmm I've never thought about this before, but it makes great sense

[Soulless-Shadow]

You know the scene when you meet Dahlia and she's like: "What are you wearing these for?"

I can't help but think maybe it's related to the Wicked and Weak ending. In that ending, Dahlia slaps Harry and his glasses fall off. I wonder if maybe to little Cheryl...she took it as her Mother didn't like her dad's glasses? And as such, Young Dahlia also does not approve of glasses.

I'm going out on a limb here.

I doubt it. She says that in all the play throughs, regardless of endings. It's probably just another hint that something isn't right. After all, Harry goes through the entire game up until that point with the glasses, as though he needs them to see. Then suddenly, he doesn't need them any more. He can see perfectly fine without them (I assume. Otherwise he'd complain or squint or something).
Either that or Cheryl just thinks Harry's hotter without glasses.

[Hexagram]

The Dhalia Harry meets is very young, "Dahlia" is how Cheryl sees her mother when she was her age (or maybe even younger). It's possible when Harry was younger he didn't wear glasses and thus the young Dahlia is confused to see him wear them and takes them off.

[BloodRedScarlet]

I doubt it. She says that in all the play throughs, regardless of endings.

I'm aware but do we have any idea what the canon ending is?


Personally, I don't believe the whole 'Young Dahlia symbolizes Cheryl' thing. But that's just me being skeptical. I mean, for me, when I see how YDahlia and Harry interact...well, it's just me.

But I think Hexagram's probably right. That seems very likely...

[Soulless-Shadow]

The Dhalia Harry meets is very young, "Dahlia" is how Cheryl sees her mother when she was her age (or maybe even younger). It's possible when Harry was younger he didn't wear glasses and thus the young Dahlia is confused to see him wear them and takes them off.

That's possible. Of course, that's assuming Cheryl saw some old photos of Harry that were taken before she was born. I don't recall finding anything like that in the game though. I know there's the photo of Harry in a locket, but he has glasses in that.

I doubt it. She says that in all the play throughs, regardless of endings.

I'm aware but do we have any idea what the canon ending is?

I don't think any ending has been confirmed as canon, so just like with SH2, any and all endings are just as likely. It's up to the player's interpretation.

Personally, I don't believe the whole 'Young Dahlia symbolizes Cheryl' thing. But that's just me being skeptical. I mean, for me, when I see how YDahlia and Harry interact...well, it's just me.

I think Young Dahlia is a combination of Cheryl, her mother, and what she thinks of her mother. Just because Young Dahlia has a sexual relationship with Harry doesn't mean she's not based, in part, on Cheryl. Cheryl is messed up, after all. Actually, Dr. K mentions that Cheryl has an "abnormal sexuality". That, combined with one of the echo images at the brothel, Cybil's admiration for her father, Lisa's attraction to older men, Cheryl being photographed with an older teacher (that may or may not be a sexual relationship, or entirely innocent), and Michelle liking men who look like her dad says to me that a part of Young Dahlia is most likely based on Cheryl. Kinda...creepy, when you think about it. o_O

[Lumkins]

In the Love Lost ending and the Siren and Sleaze ending, he isn't wearing the glasses.
In the Wicked and Weak ending, Dahlia slaps them off of his face
and in the Drunk Dad ending they fall off when he stumbles on the porch.

He doesn't have them at the end, regardless of which one you get. I think that Dahlia taking them off when Harry first meets her in the Balkan represents Cheryl beginning to remember the second half of her videotape...

[Don, Aman]

I think that Dahlia taking them off when Harry first meets her in the Balkan represents Cheryl beginning to remember the second half of her videotape...

I think this makes a lot of sense. At the very least, she is starting to question whether her "memories" are quite accurate at this point. Do you think there's any significance to the fact that he doesn't have his glasses in Love Lost or Sirens and Sleaze?

[lain of the wired]

If you wanna get symbolic about it, glasses have a dual meaning of both clearing and obscuring vision, as well as a way to hide/disguise the person behind them (Superman/Clark Kent? No one?). Dahlia's removal of Harry's glasses could be Cheryl's mind's way of letting her know she was getting closer to the truth (i.e. her "vision" is becoming clearer so she doesn't need them), and she doesn't have to hide behind "Harry."

[Don, Aman]

Dahlia's removal of Harry's glasses could be Cheryl's mind's way of letting her know she was getting closer to the truth

I like this interpretation. Whenever I go back and play Shattered Memories, I love looking for all the subtle hints Cheryl's subconscious is giving her throughout the game. I think this could be a good example of just that.

[SilentWren]

I kinda like that one, too. But what would the purpose of Dahlia taking them off be?
Maybe because it worked in context with both Cheryl's psychology and her mental image of her ma? Whatcha think?

[Don, Aman]

Could be. Cheryl transposes a lot of her own mannerisms and personality on to Dahlia. So this could be a clue from Cheryl's own sub-/un-conscious about the nature of her own memories. Beyond that, we could have a Maria / P-Head situation here, with one figure pushing Cheryl's mind towards the truth and the other attempting to further obscure it.

[NeoRanger]

I'm going with the theory about young Harry not wearing glasses as well. Harry serves as a vehicle for Cheryl's memories that, as you progress in the game i.e. her psychological sessions, have to give way to the harsh reality of it all. Cheryl's image of Harry is that of the kind father that wears the glasses and all. Real Harry and especially younger Harry was probably quite a different person.

[lain of the wired]

^Why would Cheryl identify with a younger Harry she never knew? The whole point of the game is that, in order to cope with his loss, Cheryl has "overidentified" with her father, finally becoming him in her mind. She has no reason to care about the Harry she never knew specifically because she never knew him. We see in the beginning video and the memory endings that he was wearing glasses even when she was young, which leads me to believe that as long as she could remember, or at least at the time of the trauma of his loss, he wore glasses. That's gonna be the Harry she focuses on and identifies with.

@Don,Aman: good call. I always thought Dahlia looked suspiciously like Cheryl's model. I get the feeling she's sorta like Cheryl's Maria in that sense. I mean moreso than Lisa, Cybil and the others. In this game, I wonder if Dahlia ever existed, if she wasn't only based on Cheryl herself, while others were based on... well, others.

[Don, Aman]

In this game, I wonder if Dahlia ever existed, if she wasn't only based on Cheryl herself, while others were based on... well, others.

There's a lot of fodder for speculation about Dahlia in this game. She certainly acts differently than the other side characters and seems to know a bit more about what's going on, considering the scene on the boat near the end. She could very well be a representation of the part of Cheryl's psyche that doesn't want to admit the truth. I wonder what Freud would say...

[NeoRanger]

Why would Cheryl identify with a younger Harry she never knew?

I never spoke of a Harry she never knew, only about a Harry that might never have existed. I may be stretching it a bit, but they're not entirely the same thing.

I wonder what Freud would say...

That Dhalia's the part of her that's in love with her dad. Like, really in love.

[lain of the wired]

Real Harry and especially younger Harry was probably quite a different person.

That's where I got the confusion about younger Harry, whom Cheryl wouldn't have known. Yeah, the idealized Harry she identifies with and "becomes" is definitely one that never existed, hence the endings where he's drunk off his ass or in a skeevy hotel with a hooker.

I wonder what Freud would say...

Electra complex. ...Ok, maybe Freud wouldn't have said it. Freud would've said Cheryl just wanted a penis because women are weak and powerless and, you know, constantly jealous of that whole clunky genital area.

[Don, Aman]

^ Yeah, ol' Sigmund was a bit of an ass. There's lots of indications of the Elektra complex throughout the game, though.