How this game could have been fixed.

Ten years after the original game and Harry's still searching for his daughter.

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NanayaShiki
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by NanayaShiki »

Shattered Memories didn't have bad writing. A few lines felt a bit unnatural from time to time, but if I may, that just adds to the otherwordly feel. ;)

I liked SM Kauffman. His speeches/rants were a great source of entertainment for me, and his cynical approach to psychology was enjoyable. A video game doesn't need to be completely 100% realistic and life-like, you know. Just because he doesn't act like a real psychologist probably would doesn't make him a bad character.

Oh, what am I bothering for? Some people simply want to hate things and will convince themselves everything about is terrible to justify their hatred. And here I thought I was annoyingly irrational with the things I hate.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by Tillerman »

NanayaShiki wrote:I liked SM Kauffman. His speeches/rants were a great source of entertainment for me, and his cynical approach to psychology was enjoyable. A video game doesn't need to be completely 100% realistic and life-like, you know. Just because he doesn't act like a real psychologist probably would doesn't make him a bad character.
Actually, I kinda like him too. Although I don't think I liked him in the way the developers intended... the sheer ridiculousness of some of his speeches was pretty entertaining. I don't know if he was actually good for the game, as he made it harder for me to take things seriously... but still, funny is funny.
NanayaShiki wrote:Oh, what am I bothering for?
Don't be so negative... we sort of agreed!
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by AuraTwilight »

Kauffman was pretty clearly going off on her own problems a lot of the time while counselling Cheryl, which is completely fitting. He's kind of frightening and near the end he seems actually dangerous, despite being so gentle and inviting in the beginning. This is similar to all men Cheryl's dealt with since Harry's death. It's entirely possible that his actions are being exaggerated by Cheryl, or if it was just a clusterfuck of misfortune validating what she's feeling.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by NanayaShiki »

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I just figured he had his own problems and wasn't the most professional psychiatrist at the time. I mean, the man clearly liked himself some booze.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by AuraTwilight »

Oh yea, clearly. I'm just saying that he might be portrayed that way as a final fuck you to Cheryl. His behavior might be why she's clamming up and not facing her problems. She feels scared and vulnerable with him and doesn't trust him by this point. Or maybe her bullshit is so annoying it causes people to lose patience with her and she's living a self-fulfilling prophecy.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by AuraTwilight »

Don't know where to put this, and I think it's been long enough that I can doublepost since it'd also be bumping a month-old thread:

I had a dream about improving this game. Aside from fixing controls and stuff like that, my dream modified things a bit. I think it was in the hospital because there were Raw Shock Nurses, but while a lot of rooms were deadends, you had the ability to lock those doors so you could explore the room and enjoy the imagery like in a previous game, but you have to deal with the fact that there will be Raw Shocks right outside, since they know the door wasn't supposed to be locked.

There was a proper inventory so, you know, puzzles could be hard and shit. And Harry also found a scapel, able to use it to slice the fuck out of some Raw Shocks. They went down for a few seconds, but got up after like five seconds like they were Shibito, combining elements of both types of games.

After a while the dream derailed as Harry met a friendly talking dog who could turn into an anime chick and then there were Mario Party-esque minigames but the first part as pretty solid, right?
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by wonder's boy »

I like those ideas and agree SM would have benefited from adjustments like these. Especially like the one about being able to lock the doors and whatnot, maybe to areas that have other doors you can escape through without having to unlock it and walk right into the arms of the Raw Shocks. Being able to at least fight back some would have been great, as a balance of fleeing/attacking/hiding worked very well in what I've played of Siren (which wasn't long, unfortunately, but I plan to actually play them some day, especially the PS3 one).

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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by KiramidHead »

The original Siren is good so far, but it's a bit slow and not exactly fair.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by KoRn_Child »

I don't think SM needs to be "fixed"; I think it's an excellent game and love it the way it is. That being said, if they were to make another SH game in this vein I would suggest a few changes:

1) Give the main character a way to defend him/herself. No, I don't mean adding combat back in. I'm thinking something more along the lines of the defensive knives from the Gamecube Resident Evil REmake. One-use items that can be used as a last resort for getting a monster off of you. Using one would temporarily stun the monster, allowing the player a few seconds to escape. Make them relatively scarce so the player is careful about when to use them.

2) Give us more than one type of enemy. Make them dangerous and make sure their attacks look damaging (no hugging to death here). Make them less numerous, but also make them appear outside of the Otherworld. In fact, make them roaming enemies with random spawn points. This will keep the player on-edge and on their toes.

3) Since the enemies can roam the environments, we'll need to compensate for this. Introduce a way to lure enemies to different locations (this will ensure a monster doesn't park itself in front of a puzzle or something) and enhance SM's "stealth" mechanic so the player can eventually hide from the monster until it moves on. This should create some tense moments.

4) Either scrap the chase sequences, or make the routes more intuitive. Nobody liked getting lost in SM. If the chase scenes are preserved, give them their own unique monster (Downpour seems to be doing this). Actually, the chase sequences could be combined with the lure mechanic.



I really like the idea someone suggested of random Otherworld shifts. They'd probably still need a couple of scripted ones for story purposes, though.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by Yuki »

KoRn_Child wrote:I don't think SM needs to be "fixed"; I think it's an excellent game and love it the way it is. That being said, if they were to make another SH game in this vein I would suggest a few changes:

1) Give the main character a way to defend him/herself. No, I don't mean adding combat back in. I'm thinking something more along the lines of the defensive knives from the Gamecube Resident Evil REmake. One-use items that can be used as a last resort for getting a monster off of you. Using one would temporarily stun the monster, allowing the player a few seconds to escape. Make them relatively scarce so the player is careful about when to use them.

2) Give us more than one type of enemy. Make them dangerous and make sure their attacks look damaging (no hugging to death here). Make them less numerous, but also make them appear outside of the Otherworld. In fact, make them roaming enemies with random spawn points. This will keep the player on-edge and on their toes.

3) Since the enemies can roam the environments, we'll need to compensate for this. Introduce a way to lure enemies to different locations (this will ensure a monster doesn't park itself in front of a puzzle or something) and enhance SM's "stealth" mechanic so the player can eventually hide from the monster until it moves on. This should create some tense moments.

4) Either scrap the chase sequences, or make the routes more intuitive. Nobody liked getting lost in SM. If the chase scenes are preserved, give them their own unique monster (Downpour seems to be doing this). Actually, the chase sequences could be combined with the lure mechanic.



I really like the idea someone suggested of random Otherworld shifts. They'd probably still need a couple of scripted ones for story purposes, though.
I pretty much agree with all of this. However--at least in the forest chase sequence--you had to follow the lights and you'd be safe.

Random Otherworld shifts... I'm torn. On one hand, they'd be freaky as fuck. On the other, with chase sequences, unless you get dumped back where you were originally, they'd make the games even more frustrating because you'd wind up having to get back to where you started, and for all you know the Otherworld will appear right then once again.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by KoRn_Child »

Yuki wrote:
KoRn_Child wrote:I don't think SM needs to be "fixed"; I think it's an excellent game and love it the way it is. That being said, if they were to make another SH game in this vein I would suggest a few changes:

1) Give the main character a way to defend him/herself. No, I don't mean adding combat back in. I'm thinking something more along the lines of the defensive knives from the Gamecube Resident Evil REmake. One-use items that can be used as a last resort for getting a monster off of you. Using one would temporarily stun the monster, allowing the player a few seconds to escape. Make them relatively scarce so the player is careful about when to use them.

2) Give us more than one type of enemy. Make them dangerous and make sure their attacks look damaging (no hugging to death here). Make them less numerous, but also make them appear outside of the Otherworld. In fact, make them roaming enemies with random spawn points. This will keep the player on-edge and on their toes.

3) Since the enemies can roam the environments, we'll need to compensate for this. Introduce a way to lure enemies to different locations (this will ensure a monster doesn't park itself in front of a puzzle or something) and enhance SM's "stealth" mechanic so the player can eventually hide from the monster until it moves on. This should create some tense moments.

4) Either scrap the chase sequences, or make the routes more intuitive. Nobody liked getting lost in SM. If the chase scenes are preserved, give them their own unique monster (Downpour seems to be doing this). Actually, the chase sequences could be combined with the lure mechanic.



I really like the idea someone suggested of random Otherworld shifts. They'd probably still need a couple of scripted ones for story purposes, though.
I pretty much agree with all of this. However--at least in the forest chase sequence--you had to follow the lights and you'd be safe.

Random Otherworld shifts... I'm torn. On one hand, they'd be freaky as fuck. On the other, with chase sequences, unless you get dumped back where you were originally, they'd make the games even more frustrating because you'd wind up having to get back to where you started, and for all you know the Otherworld will appear right then once again.
Yeah, chase sequences and random Otherworld shifts probably shouldn't coexist in the same game.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by Tillerman »

Yuki wrote:Random Otherworld shifts... I'm torn. On one hand, they'd be freaky as fuck. On the other, with chase sequences, unless you get dumped back where you were originally, they'd make the games even more frustrating because you'd wind up having to get back to where you started, and for all you know the Otherworld will appear right then once again.
But it is possible to hide in SM, it's just that it's useless because you need to reach a goal, and hiding doesn't help you accomplish that. If we changed it so that chase sequences were random and timed, then you could just wait them out... then all of a sudden those useless hiding mechanics have a use. Then you don't necessarily need to just run blindly through a maze like you do in the current game. You would only need to run if you were caught.

To add to that, if the otherworld shifts were random, I'd say there should be a fixed amount of time afterwords when you will definitely not encounter another one. In other words, it could be just like an RPG's random encounters... they aren't truly random, there is a certain amount of time after an encounter where you are safe, but you don't know how long that is so it feels random.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by Yuki »

Tillerman wrote:
Yuki wrote:Random Otherworld shifts... I'm torn. On one hand, they'd be freaky as fuck. On the other, with chase sequences, unless you get dumped back where you were originally, they'd make the games even more frustrating because you'd wind up having to get back to where you started, and for all you know the Otherworld will appear right then once again.
But it is possible to hide in SM, it's just that it's useless because you need to reach a goal, and hiding doesn't help you accomplish that. If we changed it so that chase sequences were random and timed, then you could just wait them out... then all of a sudden those useless hiding mechanics have a use. Then you don't necessarily need to just run blindly through a maze like you do in the current game. You would only need to run if you were caught.

To add to that, if the otherworld shifts were random, I'd say there should be a fixed amount of time afterwords when you will definitely not encounter another one. In other words, it could be just like an RPG's random encounters... they aren't truly random, there is a certain amount of time after an encounter where you are safe, but you don't know how long that is so it feels random.
I think it depends on the RPG, because sometimes I get random encounters one after another. :P

Actually, that sounds like an intriguing idea. I liked the hiding mechanics in SM, but there was no point to them. The Raw Shocks could find you easily, and they were only really of use if only one was on your tail. Making the Otherworld shifts timed could be a good idea with this sort of system.

I'd say, though, that we need some scripted and some random, and the scripted would only finish once a goal has been reached (running or storyline/puzzle). I also feel like we could use real-time Otherworld shifts alongside waking up in the Otherworld.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by Tillerman »

Thanks. That was my initial idea, to have some random otherworld transitions mixed up with some scripted ones. For the random ones you have to just wait them out / survive them, for the scripted ones you have to reach a location. The only problem is that the random transitions are gonna seem annoying after awhile because they stall your game. So they should probably be somewhat rare. But even so I think it would've been a nice idea to shake up the predictable formula of SM's gameplay.

However, I think the best solution for future games is probably just to keep the possibility of monsters in any location, and allow the player multiple options for dealing with them; either by running, hiding or fighting. Chase sequences are cool as long as they aren't overdone; I am looking forward to the void sequences in Downpour, but if they overuse them then it's gonna lose it's effect as quickly as SM's chase sequences did.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by Yuki »

I highly doubt they'll use the void sequences every Otherworld.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by KoRn_Child »

Way back when I played Simon's Quest, whenever it transitioned to night I would find a safe ledge and wait it out. It usually worked... but it was boring as all hell. I wouldn't want Silent Hill to emulate that experience. It is supposed to be a horror game after all, so why give the player a safe place to hide?

How about instead, the number of enemies are limited to one or two at a time. Make it so the hiding spots are only effective for a short while before the monster eventually finds you. This will force the player to keep moving as they seek an escape route as soon as the monster(s) leave the immediate vicinity. Otherwise the player could mistake a scripted shift for a random one and end up camping somewhere forever waiting got it to change back.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by Tillerman »

Um, I think you might've been the only one to do that in Simon's Quest. The monsters at night dropped more hearts too, y'know.

But yeah, I kind of agree with you and kind of think you're missing the point... for one thing, there's tons of monsters in SM and they can easily sniff out your hiding place, so you WILL have to spend some time running. And yes it is a horror game, and that's kind of the point... suspense is a big part of horror and hiding when you know you could be caught would be a pretty awesome way to create that.

But at the same time, you're right that it would get annoying if you frequentally find yourself being stalled, forced to wait. I think it would work really well if it only happened rarely, but SM probably needs more of a fix than that.
KoRn_Child wrote:How about instead, the number of enemies are limited to one or two at a time. Make it so the hiding spots are only effective for a short while before the monster eventually finds you. This will force the player to keep moving as they seek an escape route as soon as the monster(s) leave the immediate vicinity. Otherwise the player could mistake a scripted shift for a random one and end up camping somewhere forever waiting got it to change back.
That's a good point as well, about the player mistaking one for the other. I think your idea is good as well... I definitely agree that there are too many Raw Shocks everywhere in the nightmare mode. There are so many times when you are practically forced to take damage because there's no way to get around them. Here's what I would add: make the monsters *more* dangerous, but have a harder time detecting you. Part of the reason stealth is useless in SM is that the monsters are just way too good at detecting you. It also has to do with the level design just not being conducing to stealth, as well.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by Yuki »

KoRn_Child wrote: How about instead, the number of enemies are limited to one or two at a time. Make it so the hiding spots are only effective for a short while before the monster eventually finds you. This will force the player to keep moving as they seek an escape route as soon as the monster(s) leave the immediate vicinity. Otherwise the player could mistake a scripted shift for a random one and end up camping somewhere forever waiting got it to change back.
Or another solution: it's a character with multiple personalities. Two separate Otherworlds.
Or a character with one personality, but two dominant traits fighting inside her.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by KoRn_Child »

Tillerman wrote:Um, I think you might've been the only one to do that in Simon's Quest. The monsters at night dropped more hearts too, y'know.

To be fair, I was like 5 when I played Simon's Quest.



Anyway, I don't think I missed your point so much as I merely misinterpreted your post. I thought you were suggesting that the player would be able to pick a hiding spot and safely remain there for the entire duration of the Otherworld shift. As long as the player would have some incentive to eventually leave their shelter and keep moving it would work fine.

My comment about the enemies being made more "threatening" than the rawshocks was more about appearances than anything. The rawshocks just weren't very imposing, and their method of attacking you didn't help. It looked like they were giving you a bear hug. I think any enemies should at least look like they are able to physically hurt you.

I agree that the enemies would need to take longer to find you than the rawshocks did. They usually just tractor-beamed onto you as soon as you tried to hide. There were also too many of them, so when one would leave the room you were in another would enter seconds later. This is where limiting the number of enemies would help. Maybe keep it limited to one or two at a time? Although, it would be kind of cool if they had an enemy type that works in small groups (of like 3-4) to hunt you down as a pack. They'd have to really nail the hiding mechanics for that to not be frustrating, though. They could always get help from the Kojima Productions crew to iron-out any potential stealth mechanics, I guess.
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Re: How this game could have been fixed.

Post by KoRn_Child »

Yuki wrote:
KoRn_Child wrote: How about instead, the number of enemies are limited to one or two at a time. Make it so the hiding spots are only effective for a short while before the monster eventually finds you. This will force the player to keep moving as they seek an escape route as soon as the monster(s) leave the immediate vicinity. Otherwise the player could mistake a scripted shift for a random one and end up camping somewhere forever waiting got it to change back.
Or another solution: it's a character with multiple personalities. Two separate Otherworlds.
Or a character with one personality, but two dominant traits fighting inside her.
As long as there would be some way to differentiate between the random and scripted sequences it would work fine.

I really like the dual-Otherworld idea. They could gave the protagonist have multiple personalities, like you suggested. They could have the protagonist living a double-life so to speak. They could have an "A History of Violence" scenario where the main character is trying to escape their past. Or they could have the player unknowingly be playing as identical twins, constantly transitioning between the two (this would require some serious creativity to pull off without the player catching on) and never being addressed by name. Any of those could make dual Otherworlds work.

So yeah, I think having two Otherworlds would be very interesting. Great idea, Yuki!
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