(Spoilers) The ending and why I don't think they're related

Ten years after the original game and Harry's still searching for his daughter.

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pj
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Post by pj »

Dogg Thang wrote:I can see how you could read a lot into that exchange. But you'd be reading a lot into that exchange. As it is, it gives very little away and we can't know what Dahlia actually knows.

And one thing she said she did know is that this isn't the first time Harry has gone a bit funny.
Again, you're talking about the first encounter with Dahlia. And I agree, at that point there's not enough to conclude she's hiding anything.

But explain this later exchange:

Harry: "Do you know what's happening to me?"
Dahlia: "I know a lot of things."

This is at the end of the game. In the boat. Its a relatively calm discussion, no "re-writing," no freaking out. Harry tells Dahlia that he's seen her as a woman twice her current age, that he's seen her die. Then he asks what's happening to him, and she says:

"I know a lot of things."

The other constructs try to help Harry as much as they can and give him whatever information they have access too. Michelle shows him the picture of teenage Cheryl and then helps him break into the principal's office to look up more information. Hell, Cybil spends half the game struggling to give him the one piece of information she has.

Dahlia, on the other hand, behaves in a completely opposite manner. She tells Harry that she has information and then does not give it to him.

It's not reading too much into this. In fact, its kind of freakin' obvious, to be frank.
If you think about it from the point of view of somebody constructing this fantasy (whether simply imagining it or manifesting constructs, whichever floats you boat), it makes sense to do this. What's going on is fluid, being changed as Harry progresses. Dahlia dropping that in serves a function - it gives Harry a reason not to progress.
I don't see how this pertains to the points I'm making. I never said it doesn't make sense. My point doesn't have anything to do with why Dahlia's impeding him, it's simply that Dahlia knows more information than she's giving to Harry. She pretty much 100% confirms this--and no, that's not reading too much into it.
If the problem is not this changing world, the missing daughter, the changing characters but is, in fact, simply that Harry is several eggs short of an omelette, it takes power away from Harry. It allows Harry to be led rather than lead.

So what Dahlia knows or thinks she knows could very simply be what Cheryl put in there to cause Harry to doubt himself - that he was dropped as a baby or did too much drugs in the 80s or whatever.
That's.....kind of my point. I mean, my whole two points here are that Construct Dahlia is rude and deceptive.

Of course Cheryl's subconsciously at the wheel--she's subconsciously at the wheel of all of these characters. That doesn't change my point at all.
That also would explain her "Jesus" and her getting short with Harry about it. This isn't the first time Harry has done this as far as this created Dahlia is concerned. She's clearly fed up with it.

Of course she could know much more than that. But we simply don't know and you would have to read more into it than we're given.
If a character says, "I know a lot of things," and then doesn't reveal what those things are, you can pretty safely arrive at two conclusions:

1.) That character knows a lot of things
2.) That character is keeping those things to herself

I'm not reading too much into this, nor am I going on anything more than we're given.
Last edited by pj on 10 Feb 2010, edited 1 time in total.
Dogg Thang
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Post by Dogg Thang »

I agree with those conclusions. But tackling those conclusions one by one -

1.) You don't know what those things are.
2.) You don't know what those things are.

At the risk of repeating my previous post, what we do know is that she thinks Harry has done this before. We don't know what happened (she keeps that to herself), we don't know the outcome (she keeps that to herself), we don't know how bad things got (she keeps that to herself).

Even with that one tiny snippet she drops in at the start, she is already keeping stuff to herself. It doesn't need to be any more than that.

It could be.

But, once again, we don't and can't know that.
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Post by pj »

Dogg Thang wrote:I agree with those conclusions. But tackling those conclusions one by one -

1.) You don't know what those things are.
2.) You don't know what those things are.
Knowing what those things are has absolutely no bearing on my point.

Regardless of what they are, Dahlia is keeping them to herself.

Thus, she is being deceptive.

Fin.

At the risk of repeating my previous post, what we do know is that she thinks Harry has done this before. We don't know what happened (she keeps that to herself), we don't know the outcome (she keeps that to herself), we don't know how bad things got (she keeps that to herself).
Ok, and the end of the game and the revelation of what all of the constructs are reveals that Harry hasn't done this before. So that retroactively validates my assessment of Dahlia.
Even with that one tiny snippet she drops in at the start, she is already keeping stuff to herself. It doesn't need to be any more than that.

It could be.

But, once again, we don't and can't know that.
Again, not my point, and not important to my point.

My point: Dahlia's deceptive. If you agree she's keeping important information to herself, she's deceptive. What that information is doesn't change that.
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Post by Dogg Thang »

Yeah, I see what you're saying and, on a very basic level, I have to give you that. I don't seem to be reading the same thing into it though. She's brash and sarcastic (it's a boat - like a car but on water). "I know a lot of things" seems like a pretty natural response from someone like Dahlia without it having to be any sort of sinister deception.

It seems far more like a throwaway response to me.

And yet, with that, still serves Cheryl's purpose, just as it would if she were being truly deceptive. Actually, as I type this, I'm thinking that in fact it doesn't. If she was truly being deceptive, she'd be nuts to flag it like that. That's not smart deception and would only prompt Harry to try to find out more.

But he doesn't. Not at that moment.

Because it's a throwaway response and, from Cheryl's perspective, does exactly what it is supposed to do. He is disarmed and distracted.


That any of this hasn't happened to Harry before doesn't really change anything. If Dahlia is created with the thinking that it did happen before, and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt what she says early on in the game, then as far as she is concerned it did.

And, not that it matters, we don't know that it hasn't happened before. Who knows how many times Cheryl has played out these events, or versions of them?
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Post by pj »

Aura, I totally missed your response post, so I'm going back to address it....

Wasn't that exchange on the boat? I don't remember; Anyway, it's moot. Just because she "knows a lot of things" doesn't necessarily mean what you're implying. From Dahlia's perspective, Harry's drunk and/or fucking with her and she doesn't know why he's pretending to have amnesia.
That wouldn't make sense from a dialogue perspective. She's already revealed that he's "acted weird before," why would she suddenly change her verbiage to something mysterious like "I know a lot of things" now?

If that's what she was referring to, it would only make narrative sense for her to elaborate on, or at least reiterate, the "Harry acting weird before" sentiment. It doesn't make sense that she'd suddenly refer to it in such an ambiguous way when its already been brought up in a very frank manner.

No, it's not, because we're both projecting our perceptions onto Dahlia based on our understandings of basic human behavior.
Not really--I'm talking primarily from a narrative construction perspective here.
If you ignore the implications of that exchange, in addition to the other examples I've brought up, then you're simply doing it because you want to.
So basically if I draw a different interpretation from you, then I'm deliberately not seeing what you're seeing. Wow, and I'm the obnoxious one.
I don't think you're obnoxious.

Seriously, do our conversations really have to go places like this? You're the one calling me sensitive, I'm just trying to talk about some dialogue in a video game.


And Dogg Thang:
Dogg Thang wrote:Yeah, I see what you're saying and, on a very basic level, I have to give you that. I don't seem to be reading the same thing into it though. She's brash and sarcastic (it's a boat - like a car but on water). "I know a lot of things" seems like a pretty natural response from someone like Dahlia without it having to be any sort of sinister deception.

It seems far more like a throwaway response to me.
That's fine if you feel that way, it just seems waaaaaay to weighted for me to regard it as a throw-away comment.
And yet, with that, still serves Cheryl's purpose, just as it would if she were being truly deceptive. Actually, as I type this, I'm thinking that in fact it doesn't. If she was truly being deceptive, she'd be nuts to flag it like that. That's not smart deception and would only prompt Harry to try to find out more.

But he doesn't. Not at that moment.

Because it's a throwaway response and, from Cheryl's perspective, does exactly what it is supposed to do. He is disarmed and distracted.
Well, this whole discussion originated from my proposal that Young Dahlia embodies not only Cheryl's perceptions of herself, but also of her mother. What I'm suggesting is that "deceptive, manipulative, rude" traits that I keep referring to, which I feel Young Dahlia consistently exhibits, are borne out of the negative ways Cheryl perceived her mother.

And since I feel like the entire drama we witness (outside of Dr K's office) is a very subconscious thing, I agree that there isn't "smart" deception going on. Instead these characters are acting in the ways that Cheryl subconsciously expects them to.

But again, my whole point of view is rooted in the notion that Dahlia acts in negative ways that I feel are indicative of Cheryl's feelings toward the real life Dahlia.

So I think I see your points, but they still work with what I'm saying.
That any of this hasn't happened to Harry before doesn't really change anything. If Dahlia is created with the thinking that it did happen before, and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt what she says early on in the game, then as far as she is concerned it did.

And, not that it matters, we don't know that it hasn't happened before. Who knows how many times Cheryl has played out these events, or versions of them?
Good points, sir. I feel we've kind of reconciled them in both of our interpretations.
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Post by Yuki »

Ok, and the end of the game and the revelation of what all of the constructs are reveals that Harry hasn't done this before. So that retroactively validates my assessment of Dahlia.
It was already said by Dogg, but I think it's completely possible that all this HAS happened before in Cheryl's delusion, we just only see the last time it does.


Also, as cop-out-y as this is, I agree with Aura's statements. I don't find young!Dahlia manipulative. A bit rough, yes, but she's defensive because she thinks that Harry is fucking with her. Later on, I would say from after sex on the boat, it seems to me that Cheryl is like "OH SHIT I CAN'T DENY IT DAHLIA STOP HIM" rather than having Dahlia stay in character.

I still disagree with your idea that young!Dahlia is both representative of Cheryl and her mother. I think it is solely Cheryl.
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Post by Dogg Thang »

pj wrote:this whole discussion originated from my proposal that Young Dahlia embodies not only Cheryl's perceptions of herself, but also of her mother. .
Yes and, while we differ in our interpretation of her, I'm totally with you on this point.
Instead these characters are acting in the ways that Cheryl subconsciously expects them to. .
On this, yes, I see your point but Cheryl doesn't seem to have full control over them. Otherwise she wouldn't have need for her ice freeze trick. And Harry, being the guy we play as and ultimately finding the real Cheryl when she doesn't want him to, is fighting against Cheryl's fantasy the entire time.
I feel we've kind of reconciled them in both of our interpretations.
Yes, I think we have. We have different takes on Dahlia but I'm with you on her being a representation of Dahlia herself, not just Cheryl, and it all seems to work with both our takes on Dahlia.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

That wouldn't make sense from a dialogue perspective. She's already revealed that he's "acted weird before," why would she suddenly change her verbiage to something mysterious like "I know a lot of things" now?

If that's what she was referring to, it would only make narrative sense for her to elaborate on, or at least reiterate, the "Harry acting weird before" sentiment. It doesn't make sense that she'd suddenly refer to it in such an ambiguous way when its already been brought up in a very frank manner.
If she elaborated further, it means either tainting Harry's image, or revealing truth Cheryl doesn't want to divulge yet. Regardless of Dahlia's constructed personality, she needs to hit the brakes on Cheryl's orders.
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Post by pj »

Yuki wrote:
Ok, and the end of the game and the revelation of what all of the constructs are reveals that Harry hasn't done this before. So that retroactively validates my assessment of Dahlia.
It was already said by Dogg, but I think it's completely possible that all this HAS happened before in Cheryl's delusion, we just only see the last time it does.


Also, as cop-out-y as this is, I agree with Aura's statements. I don't find young!Dahlia manipulative. A bit rough, yes, but she's defensive because she thinks that Harry is fucking with her. Later on, I would say from after sex on the boat, it seems to me that Cheryl is like "OH SHIT I CAN'T DENY IT DAHLIA STOP HIM" rather than having Dahlia stay in character.

I still disagree with your idea that young!Dahlia is both representative of Cheryl and her mother. I think it is solely Cheryl.
Well, I guess we've both made our points on who Young Dahlia represents, and its been a good discussion.

I do have one question, though, about another point you bring up--and I'm not trying to further argue against you, I'm just curious about your take on the subject, since its so different from mine.

If, as you and Aura are suggesting, Dahlia's behavior can be explained as Cheryl "hitting the brakes," how do you account for Cybil's text message that comes directly after it? It doesn't make sense to me that Cybil would be capable of revealing such a massively important piece of information if Cheryl was so adamantly slamming the brakes on the truth. Especially when Cybil's attempts to reveal the truth to Harry have up until that point been so easily thwarted.
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Post by Yuki »

If, as you and Aura are suggesting, Dahlia's behavior can be explained as Cheryl "hitting the brakes," how do you account for Cybil's text message that comes directly after it? It doesn't make sense to me that Cybil would be capable of revealing such a massively important piece of information if Cheryl was so adamantly slamming the brakes on the truth. Especially when Cybil's attempts to reveal the truth to Harry have up until that point been so easily thwarted.
I can't account for Aura's views, but...
Cheryl is losing control at this point. She's panicking. Not only did Harry just completely reject her last-ditch attempt at keeping him with her, but she has Dr. K in reality trying to force her to tackle her issues head-on alongside Harry trying to figure out the truth. I think it is at this point that Cheryl goes "OH SHIT" and decides to send the Raw Shocks after Harry one last time because she clearly doesn't have control over anything. (Er, not necessarily "decides" consciously, but I think you get my drift.)


I do have a question... I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another, but people have insisted that young!Dahlia on the boat turns into old!Dahlia. I never got that; it always looked like young!Dahlia to me, and I don't think that would have been a psych profile feature.
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Post by pj »

Yuki wrote: I can't account for Aura's views, but...
Cheryl is losing control at this point. She's panicking. Not only did Harry just completely reject her last-ditch attempt at keeping him with her, but she has Dr. K in reality trying to force her to tackle her issues head-on alongside Harry trying to figure out the truth. I think it is at this point that Cheryl goes "OH SHIT" and decides to send the Raw Shocks after Harry one last time because she clearly doesn't have control over anything. (Er, not necessarily "decides" consciously, but I think you get my drift.)
And that's fine, and I agree on certain points, but if that's the case I just wonder how Cybil's able to get through to Harry so easily with a piece of enormously revealing information that Cheryl would want to keep from him.
I do have a question... I'm not sure if it was in this thread or another, but people have insisted that young!Dahlia on the boat turns into old!Dahlia. I never got that; it always looked like young!Dahlia to me, and I don't think that would have been a psych profile feature.
Hm, I guess I'll have to pay extra special attention the next time I see it, but I've played that scene three times now and she always looked like Young Dahlia to me there, too.
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Post by AuraTwilight »

As far as I know,she always turns into Old Dahlia when she freezes. The best way to see this is with the Tomboy costume, where she gets the most noticeable haircut and costume change.
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Post by Yuki »

Whoa. I didn't notice it until that point, but it really IS old!Dahlia. I always saw it as young!Dahlia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZZpCvR6Q7c
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Post by pj »

Ha, wow! It is. Never gotten Tomboy Dahlia, so I never noticed a real difference.

That's cool, though. Her reverting to Old Dahlia seems to have more thematic/narrative weight anyway (for lack of a better way to express the thought I'm going for).
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Post by Dogg Thang »

I've only played the PSP version so couldn't understand the confusion but the better effects on the Wii version make it far harder to tell which Dahlia you guys were looking at. On the PSP version, it's very clearly olf Dahlia, only blue.

I've never seen that version of young Dahlia or Harry's jacket in five playthroughs on the PSP either.

The graphics really look so much better. I must get the Wii version...
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