Wanting it to continue is in no way the same as not feeling guilt over his death.
What I'm getting at is that even if she feels she deserves it, that doesn't mean she wants or even accepts it.
Also, you're not addressing her obvious hate and resentment towards Thomas.
She probably does feel some level of responsibility over his death, but the trauma of murder seems to be greatly overshadowed by her trauma of abuse. She barely even mentions Thomas, and when she does, she is disgusted and angry. In the stairs of fire, she isn't talking about being deserving of the current torture because of the murder, she is saying she was deserving of torture she had received before, for being a bad person. And considering what she says after, her opinion on herself hasn't been changed "Don't pity me, I'm not worth it."
Angela was most likely feeling guilty all of her life, as it was stated that Angela convinced herself she will never be happy from an early age. With that in mind, I don't think that Thomas' murder was some sort of a great turning point, but simply a confirmation of what she has always believed in, that she's a bad person and that she'll never be happy.
Anyway, I should really shut up, seeing as how I have most likely already slipped into incoherency.
The matter of the In Water ending is same way as we think about James' crime. We are put in a situation where we must decide if James deserves to die or not. It is simple as that. Some says he is, so they think that the In Water ending is the most appropriate one, some says he must be given another chance (=MARIA, REBIRTH), or simply he is innocent (= LEAVE). That's why there is no canon ending. This is a dilemma and parallels to the hanging man's puzzle at the end of the Labyrinth part of the game.
The endings really have nothing to do with whether he feels guilty or not, anyway. What determines his ultimate outcome is how well he is able to cope with the consequences of his actions. Even in the In Water ending, his reasons for taking a dive don't seem to be driven by guilt at all, but rather loss and hopelessness.
TREX89 wrote:The matter of the In Water ending is same way as we think about James' crime. We are put in a situation where we must decide if James deserves to die or not. It is simple as that. Some says he is, so they think that the In Water ending is the most appropriate one, some says he must be given another chance (=MARIA, REBIRTH), or simply he is innocent (= LEAVE). That's why there is no canon ending. This is a dilemma and parallels to the hanging man's puzzle at the end of the Labyrinth part of the game.
If that were the case, then the only reason to play the game is to let James die within the first few minutes, being kicked to death by that very first mannequin and not even bother with the endings. Which makes neither sense or a very good game.
The game really plays on the player's natural urge to keep playing the game and keep James alive to the end. Yes, James killed Mary. Yes, killing is bad. BUT- and this is the whole reasoning behind jails over capitol punishment- he feels remorseful. In SH, he is confronted by his guilt, and in facing it, is freed to live his life. He becomes a healthy mind, maybe even a healthy soul. Furthermore, he did it for good reasons as well as his selfish ones- but even his selfish feelings weren't unhealthy. Even if you love someone, when the become a burden you can still resent them as you love them. He's far from innocent, but he's remorseful, and that's the best you can hope for when you can't fix what's been done.
As for the initial post: well, obviously I'm a fan. Eloquently put.
You'll be missed. You were missed. I am missing you.
Alone in the Town, I like your post very much, and in the little time I have been here, I can say I respest you as a person who is possible argue with..
I see your point, I too think "In Water" is like a game over, in fact, when I beated the game, even dislikng James very much, I felt precissely like if I had falied. My first impulse was trying to start again, but there was some things that made me not start again. One is I don´t like James, at all, and the other is that the entire story about child rape, and it's representation in the game (doorman, and Angela's room in the Otherworld) is too disturbing and sad to me, and is enough to make me not wanting to play it again.
Later, I saw the translated mamories, and this forums, saying that any of the four endings was valid, which made me feel less incomfortable with not playing SH2 again.
I haven't noticed that the whole thing of the dead guy who resembles James dead in font of TV is like a premonition of what is about to come, or of possibly is about to come, but it makes sense, and regarding the guys that says it is more like a homicide, I have realised that James felt that he have betrayed himself too, when he killed Mary, because she was the only thing he really cared, so instead of a regullar suicide we get a representation of the suicide that is like if James have shooted himslef by the back, betraying even himself.
My reasons to believe "In water" makes sense is the references about James committing suicide that we see through the game, like the mentioned dude in the couch, the writing in the wall saying he would rather die if he wants to see Mary again, the fact that he throw himself into his own tomb, in a room where was the tombs of other people already death, or that was going to die, like Eddy, Angela and Wallter Sullivan, and all the water that is flooding the Hotel near the end.
I think that he commit suicide because when he realizes what he have done, aside from the guilt, he realizes that he really have nothing to live for, and he is a coward, because, committing suicide or not, the thing he did before, killing Mary, an ill person who in the core of her heart wanted to live, like she herself says, and being James a person that she trusted, is 10.000 times more cowardly. Plus, he killed her in cold blood, because it took time, isn't like he would shoot her or something, and while he was killing her, she was begging for live. I supposse is very evident I hate James, but that don't made my statements less real. And he killed her because he was tired of her illnes. I don't think it was for mercy or love, at all. James is a person who really don't care about no one, like when she leaves Angela knowing she is going to commit suicide. She says: "Are you going to love me?" I understand he didn't say yes in a situation like that, but he could make her comfortable, something like: "I can try to help you, maybe only as friend, but give me a chance" Maybe even saying so Angela would have commited suicide, but he dind't even say so, he did't even say nothing at all.
So, James committing suicide fits to me, it would bea good example of fatal destiny, but not an impossed destiny, but a destiny choosen by him right after killing Mary.
And for me, the entire Silent Hill experience of James, starts because he wants to die, but has fear, obviusly, and the travel he makes and the final conversation with Mary, convince him that he has nothing to live for, and reaffirm himself to commit suicide. He himself says so: "Now I know why I come here, what was afraid of?" That last sentence of the very game make it very obvious.
But seriosly, with all this hate and all, I don't desire James to die per se, I'm open to believe he could forgive himself, although I don't know what the hell is going to do with his life, being a father for Laura? Him?
My reasons to believe "In water" makes sense is the references about James committing suicide that we see through the game, like the mentioned dude in the couch, the writing in the wall saying he would rather die if he wants to see Mary again, the fact that he throw himself into his own tomb, in a room where was the tombs of other people already death, or that was going to die, like Eddy, Angela and Wallter Sullivan, and all the water that is flooding the Hotel near the end.
Here's food for thought. What if these references are about James thinking about suicide, and part of his journey is to answer whether he should? He could face life, go crazy, or...fail to overcome it and commit suicide.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Yeah, I know that even with that references to suicide, he still can make it to another end, but I still think in "In Water" as a fittest ending. This is just personal preference.
What if all of those references are specifically referring to James' original intent to commit suicide (the reason he truly came to town in the first place), and foreshadow absolutely nothing?
After all, that supposed foreshadowing comes to absolutely nothing in three out of four endings...
alone in the town wrote:What if all of those references are specifically referring to James' original intent to commit suicide (the reason he truly came to town in the first place)
Wigeke wrote:^ You're wrong. He came to town to kill himself, you should read The Book of Lost Memories.
I'm not wrong. I have read the Book Of Lost Memories. ( silenthill chronicles.net).
James came to town, because he believed that Mary was " waiting in there special place".
Your'e information is not provided in the Book of Lost Memories, the novel, or even the game itself.
Yet mine is directly from the beginning part of the game itself.
Wigeke wrote:Yes you are. He also says it in the in water ending.
James: Now I understand. The real reason I came to this town.
James: I wonder what was I afraid of? Without you, Mary, I’ve got nothing.
In the beginning of the game James was delusional and he forgotten why he was heading to Silent Hill in the first place.
He ultimately " comes to town" because he " got a letter from Mary" saying that she is " waiting in there special place"
These quotations signify the delusional aspects.
In the rebirth Ending, James says he knows why he came to town also.
His reasons change depending on what ending you achieve.
So therefore, his reason for coming to town was to " look for Mary".
How do I know this? because the whole game is about him "looking for Mary". This reasoning is consistent no matter what Ending you get.
Looking for Mary was his reasoning after he became delusional, before that he was going there to kill himself. And no, in the rebirth ending he doesn't say that anywhere. The only ending he mentions his motive for coming to the town is the in water one. Considering the fact that he came to Silent Hill before any ending was chosen it's pretty reasonable to assume his reason for every one of them is consistent.
Well, in all fairness, James coming to town to kill himself is ostensibly only applicable to the In Water ending. If you, the player, achieve any other conclusion, James didn't return to Silent Hill to commit suicide, otherwise he actually does fail in his goal, and In Water should be considered the "canon" ending.
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Unless that goal is superseded by a new goal: to not commit suicide. Which is pretty much the whole point of my theory, and, I believe, the real cause of his delusional fantasy adventure. In Water is that experience changing nothing for James.
I don't see how his initial desire to kill himself should only apply to one particular scenario. He acknowledges it only in In Water, but that it is his mindset coming to town has no bearing on what his ultimate outcome should be.
^A person can go be in therapy for years and years, and if they aren't open to changing their way of thinking, their beliefs and their minds about how they look at the world, then it's not really a surprise when they ultimately follow through and kill themselves.
BUT if they realize something about their themselves during their therapy that shocks them out of their depressed stupor, they may just make it out not just alive, but also healthy.
Now replace every instance of "therapy" in the above with "delusional fantasy adventure," and you've got SH2.
You'll be missed. You were missed. I am missing you.
If this is the case, could Mary's body be in the car!?