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Agree/ disagree/ undecided about this explanation?
Agree 35%  35%  [ 9 ]
Disagree 54%  54%  [ 14 ]
Undecided 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 26
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Just Passing Through
 Post subject: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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...Just an illusion or a monster created from James's mind, especially for the specific reason of being a tool of his punishment. More specifically, she is actually a part of Mary that was made physical by her desire to be something of satisfaction for James. This is supported by the fact that she mentioned in her last letter to James that she felt guilt for not returning everything James gave to her. Subconsciously, this would be melded w/ the idea that James would also be entirely sick of Mary’s appearance altogether (considering that she also sensed his disgust and hatred for her). An entirely new fashion would be required to appease James if it were Mary herself. Although I’m not suggesting Mary consciously considered this possible or a good idea, she did this subconsciously, but maybe she did wish for consciously; regardless, she did wish to return all the love James gave to her. This is what the apartment room w/ the mannequins symbolized; Mary’s urge to change. Her urge to escape from her cocoon of loneliness and pain, hence Mary represents a caterpillar (being ugly and unattractive) and her experiences of absolute loneliness and ultimate rejection from James representing the cocoon and finally Maria representing the butterfly.

Why does it make sense that James would want to be punished through inaccurate depictions; for instance, having a woman that may look similar yet be very different become victim to very different ways of murder that suffocation? Sure, it may be torturing, but it’s not even comparable to the way James committed his murder. It’s too extreme; it would be like forcing a criminal who stole something to watch someone eat someone else alive as punishment. It isn’t as if James expected to come to the town and smash his way through monsters either. He came there to find Mary, and arguably, w/ the subconscious intent to commit suicide in a place of memories or at least to be continued immersed in his delusion that dead people can write letters (the other side). It was not his real, subconscious intent to come to a town to be punished for what he did to Mary. Even if it was, why produce Maria when he could have been even more tortured w/ an exact replica of Mary to be killed instead? One might say to make the delusion more real, but what’s the point of it when we’re also assuming Maria’s executions were for the sake of James’s subconscious desire for punishment? Why even produce the subconscious illusion in the first place if he really didn’t want it?

You may be considering the scene, near the end of the game, at the alternate Lakeview Hotel. It is the one where he encounters the two red pyramid things skewering Maria and kneels in aguish about their reason of existence being to punish him for his sins. The reason that this does not actually verify the purpose for Maria and/ or the r.p.t.s is because of the context of what he said. For sins, we could literally say it actually means his sin of not being baptized as a child or for saying the Lord’s name in vein. Or, perhaps for enjoying his experiences w/ Maria or secretly fantasizing about her prior to her execution beneath the Brookhaven hospital or inside the labyrinth prison. She is executed for deviating him from his path, as a war criminal; for triggering a division of his republic, per se.

More on Maria: observe how much character is put into her in Born from a Wish. She is an individual; her own person. She does not act as a monster under the whim of some conjuror. She fights for impossible causes, questions her situation and reason for being objectively, and has genuine care and unexplained knowledge for Laura. Some might say her knowledge came from Laura herself, but then why is it that only James sees Maria, assuming you believe Laura did not see her? Generally, if there’s some sort of otherworldly connection, they see each other’s work for some period of time. This also does not explain Maria’s “motherly protectionism” towards Laura, in a city full of monsters. Assuming it takes two or more people to materialize a monster in accordance to James’s delusions requires more generalizations than it would to assume one person who holds all of the necessarily thoughts and memories produced Maria.

What about her multiple resurrections and her transformation at some of the endings of the games? If we can consider that Maria was a part of Mary; specifically, a mental part of herself that wanted to pay debt to James, then I could say that you cannot destroy a thought. She may physically be destroyed, but Mary’s will is not, or perhaps you can now say Maria’s will. The r.p.t.s are inclined to James’s will, thus they can represent his rejection towards Maria when they murder her, and w/ this rejection comes Mary’s/ Maria’s will to continue changing into what James would accept her as. To pursue his illusion in being reunited w/ his wife, some random broad should not stand in his way. It is not honorable for a man of his circumstances; she has instigated the division of a republic and committed and act of treason, thus she should be punished as well as James himself for deviating from righteousness. That is, until he realizes the truth about his illusion and no longer seeks to continue it because he knows it is not true and now believes it’s still possible Mary’s waiting for him (the white noiz in room 302) and/ or has fallen for Maria. James will be invited in Mary’s otherworld, where her ghost will be put to rest or will reject the notion that Mary is really waiting for him and is more willing to take what he has instead of continuing to gamble himself (which is either the ritual of resurrection or Maria). Maria’s transformation could be argued to be a projection of James himself or, with Mary’s/ Maria’s will becoming more susceptible to James’s will (or not necessarily his will, but her own will changing), directly becoming what James presently demands Maria to be, which is a nightmare that can easily be ended w/ out conscious regret.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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She's not a part of Mary, she's just a manifestation of her wish; she is not a soul split like Alessa/Cheryl. Otherwise you're pretty correct. She's still a construct and manifestation, though; a well-designed philosophical zombie, of a sort.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Just Passing Through
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A manifestation of her wish... I would consider that part of her, in some way. Actually, I'm kind of surprised how much you agree w/ this though. I thought you were a big advocate that Maria was James's volition?

One main point I want to emphasize is the r.p.t.'s actions towards James and Maria. Many people stick to the interpretation that it is a means of torture and reminding. But why these specific executions be committed in such surreal ways? Ways that were completely different from Mary's actual death. To me, it is an alternative, valid interpretation for Maria's executions to represent James's rejection of Maria. There is many reasons behind this, but one of the main reasons is that she stands in the way of his real intentions and it would be immoral and unfair to disregard his commitment to Mary. So, it can be an act of guilt that she is constantly butchered by James after he probably develops some kind of attachment to Maria.


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Moderator
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Maria demonstrates knowledge of things that Mary clearly knows and James clearly does not. That alone makes it clear to me that Maria is not wholly James' creature.

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Historical Society Historian
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Quote:
A manifestation of her wish... I would consider that part of her, in some way. Actually, I'm kind of surprised how much you agree w/ this though. I thought you were a big advocate that Maria was James's volition?


She's a composite. However, it's impossible for Maria to be entirely James' creature, because James never met Laura before the course of the game, and certainly didn't know about her affinity for Teddy Bears until much later.

Quote:
One main point I want to emphasize is the r.p.t.'s actions towards James and Maria. Many people stick to the interpretation that it is a means of torture and reminding. But why these specific executions be committed in such surreal ways? Ways that were completely different from Mary's actual death. To me, it is an alternative, valid interpretation for Maria's executions to represent James's rejection of Maria.


Or it's just a horrific, over the top, exaggerated way of saying "YOU KILLED MARY. YOU KILLED MARY. YOU KILLED MARY."

Quote:
There is many reasons behind this, but one of the main reasons is that she stands in the way of his real intentions and it would be immoral and unfair to disregard his commitment to Mary. So, it can be an act of guilt that she is constantly butchered by James after he probably develops some kind of attachment to Maria.


I don't think James' mind is so deranged that his subconscious would reason, "Gotta find Mary, other bitch is kind of inconvenient and sort-of-but-not-really in the way. Well, I'll just have my inner guilt kill her instead of just ditching her like a normal person."

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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I'm more of the already-posted theory that Maria is the embodiment of James' refusal to let go of the past. She represents his delusions, and the RPT just acts as a way of getting James to realize and eliminate those delusions. It's less about punishment, in my eyes, than realization.


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Moderator
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That theory sucks, and so does the jerkass who posted it.

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Just Passing Through
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alone in the town wrote:
That theory sucks, and so does the jerkass who posted it.


I too disagree with the posted theory.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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Yep. Born from a wish explained it all. It's in the title.

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Historical Society Historian
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Koshercrackers wrote:
I'm more of the already-posted theory that Maria is the embodiment of James' refusal to let go of the past. She represents his delusions, and the RPT just acts as a way of getting James to realize and eliminate those delusions. It's less about punishment, in my eyes, than realization.

PH = jame's guilty conscious.
Repressing the trauma of
[Reveal] Spoiler:
killing his wife
james became delusional, believing mary died three years ago.
PH's purpose is to force james to realize the truth. To look deeper into himself.
This is why
[Reveal] Spoiler:
PH repeatedly kills maria, to force james to get that mary is actually dead

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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Was that really necessary to necrobump the thread for?

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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I didnt know that was forbidden.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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Of course it's not forbidden, but you're not bringing anything new to the topic, thus making the bump completely unnecessary.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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I think Maria is indeed James' creation, made to remind him of his wife and to punish him. I think, the question is: is Maria a real person? The "born from a wish" makes you believe that she may be. I also don't completely believe in this, but what if Maria was a real stripper, that James embodied as her wife, of course, not so similiarly looking as Mary but created to look exactly like her, except the clothes and hair +the need to punish himself, because as long as he creates an avatar of a real person that embodies a person he killed, the avatar might show him his other purpose.

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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there are posters in Silent Hill 3 mentioning a "Lady Maria" if my memory serves correctly. The Maria we know could be a mishmash of his wife + some stripper = our favorite non-existent whore.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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^the way you worded that, it kinda seemed like you were joking-but I actually think this is the case.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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The "Lady Maria" poster is an evidence that she is a real person. Heather wouldn't have any need to invent her. But the Lady Maria doesn't have to be completely the same as Maria from SH2, the poster is not so clearly displayed.

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SHH Cult Subscriber
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 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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To me, two RPTs represents the two times Mary "died" She died for real, just a little while ago. She died in his mind 3 years ago, when she was first diagnosed. In both cases he "killed her", though the second time was far more literal. When I say he killed her three years ago, his mind shut himself off from her. He emotionally abandoned her. He decided she was dead because she was no longer the woman she used to be. It was when she ultimately changed, and he decided to have as little to do with her as possible.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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I agree with you up to a point. I think that for James, Mary died twice, in his mind, and in the literal way later- like U said.
But I'm not really sure about the two Pyramids, because, if she died 3 years ago in his mind.. he shouldn't feel remorse- it's not his fault she got sick, and I really don't believe he would led himself into believing it..
About the other death- totally! He suffocated her, and Pyramid stands for it. Maybe the answer of the two RPTs lays under the two eggs- the Scarlet egg and the... hmmshit.. help me here.. and the other one. + Why do they stabb themselves in the end? Why don't they just fall down or get killed. Does it symbolise James' end of guilt.. or do they just kill themselves voluntarily 'cause it's time to face his last form of guilt/punishment- at the roof?

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Historical Society Historian
 Post subject: Re: [SPOILERS] - I don't think Maria is...
     
         
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^"Rusty Egg"

and I agreed with everything you wrote.

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