Angela Abused: A second take (POLL)

[SHF]

Kind of. sorry. lol

[SilentWren]

I'm 100% certain that Angela was abused sexually, and I can base that only upon what happened in the second game.

During the relevant boss fight, the background is dotted with holes in the walls that have pistons pumping in and out of them. If that isn't sexual symbolism, I don't know what is.

Besides the first two times you meet her, all of Angela's dialogue is about either how much men "take" or about men not treating her right in general. She even said "or you could always force me, like he did." I mean, COME ON PEOPLE!!!

I don't normally feel strongly about story-line quirks, but this one really gets me going. I mean, seriously, 12% thought it was only physical abuse? Seriously? Why?! WHY?!?!?!?!!!

EDIT: 11%

[The Adversary]

Because of the lack of evidence?

[asphyxia_82]

to me I see it being sexual since, the monster abstract daddy, looks sortof like (the box around him) a bed, and to me, it looks like one "person" ontop of the other, doing stuff....

[alone in the town]

Before the Blaustein interview (in my opinion, at least) there was reasonable doubt on the subject. You guys are bringing up talking points that were debated a half-mile into the ground months ago. Believe me, there's no aspect to this argument that has not been covered ad nauseum.

I know there are a lot of pages to this thread, and that means reading through it is prohibitive and time-consuming. It also is a fairly good indicator that whatever argument you think you have will not add anything new to the discussion.

[Goodnight]

Have you read the interview Alone in the Town mentioned? Go back through the thread, find the interview and have a read. It is the reason people are arguing that it might not be/was not sexual abuse. Just like you formed an opinion based on something you saw, so did the people arguing against sexual abuse. There's more to a game than what we see and experience.

[Squarehead]

Well she obviously believes she was sexually abused. No, there's probably not enough evidence to convict Angela's father in a court room, but that much is not required to deduce what the developers had in mind.

Have you read the interview Alone in the Town mentioned? Go back through the thread, find the interview and have a read. It is the reason people are arguing that it might not be/was not sexual abuse. Just like you formed an opinion based on something you saw, so did the people arguing against sexual abuse. There's more to a game than what we see and experience.

What page is it?

[sorata]

What page is it?

It was page 34, but the link is here.
http://www.igotaletter.com/media/articl ... _Blaustein

May I ask the mods to put this link on the Quick link of SH2? Seems like a lot of people are looking for it.

[Squarehead]

Thanks, mate. Also, if Alone in the Town could be so kind and provide the link in the opening post, since everyone who's yet to read this thread will want to see it?

Edit: and thanks for that second link as well. Can't say it convinced me the slightest. Perhaps i'm being presumptuous, but BurningMan's post seemed pretty stubborn to me.

It would be good for the future if these were in the opening post, assuming this thread will go on.

[sorata]

^ You replied too fast, I was going to edit my post to include this argument by @Burning Man so you know why there is still two sides even after the official words from Jeremy:

http://www.silenthillforum.com/viewtopi ... my#p532780

[amphreded]

sorata, thank you for providing the link of JB's article as well as Burning Man's.
I've edited them into the first post.

Also SH2 Quicklinks have been updated. You can find the thread Article: "The Life and Games of Jeremy Blaustein" in it now.

[Miette]

Sexually, for sure. She was probably abused physically, as well. Normally, if you're sexually abused, physical comes into play somehow.

[nur_ein_tier]

I think this is an excellent point. While Thomas Orosco is, unquestionably, a vile human being, Silent Hill fans have, by and large, convicted him of rape in the court of public opinion based upon the absolute flimsiest of evidence.

She's a video game character, we can't exactly call in the special victims unit and do a rape kit. Because she's fictional, I think the use of the words like "force me to do it" imply sexual assault and they would not be there otherwise. Sure, she could be imagining it, but I don't think they'd probably do that in a video game.

Blaustein stated in another interview in a podcast that, even before the sh2 script happened, they were talking about incest themes, and I think he said it probably wouldn't fly in America, having TOO much in the way of incest themes. And then in the other interview, he mentioned that they had always been talking about sexual abuse. Just because he didn't translate everything word for word doesn't make him a bad translator. From what I can tell, he's been highly praised for his work BECAUSE he attempts to make it sound natural for the audience when localizing.

(Sorry, but I work as a translator and it pisses me off when people seem to think the best translation is always a word for word translation. Idiomatic usage and the target audience and their culture is a very important consideration. Also, FFS, it's fiction. There is no way to really say for certain what happened,but I think sexual assault is heavily implied)

[krakalackin]

^ I agree
James, " Angela relax!"
Angela, "Don't order me around!"
James, " I'm not trying to order you."
Angela, " So what do you want then? Oh, I see..You're trying to be nice to me,
right? I know what you're up to..it's always the same! You're only after
one thing!"
James, " No. That's not true at all."
Angela, " You don't have to lie. Go ahead and say it! Or you could just force
me..beat me up like he always did. You don't even care about yourself
anyway, you disgusting pig!"
James, " Angela.."
Angela, " Don't touch me! You made me sick! You said you're wife Mary was
dead, right?"
James, " Yes. She was ill."
Angela, " Liar! I know about you. You didn't want her around anymore. You
probably found someone else!"
James, " That's ridicules. I never..."

The above is from this cutscene

After reading/watching this exchange one can come to the conclusion that Angela's father and now James had both been after Angela's box of Animal Crackers.

In all seriousness though, if you were a man and you had this exchange with a woman that you don't even really know; what would you assume the woman was referring to when she says you're only after one thing?
The game doesn't ever say, but it sure hints at it. (imo)

[Yuki]

^ I agree
James, " Angela relax!"
Angela, "Don't order me around!"
James, " I'm not trying to order you."
Angela, " So what do you want then? Oh, I see..You're trying to be nice to me,
right? I know what you're up to..it's always the same! You're only after
one thing!"
James, " No. That's not true at all."
Angela, " You don't have to lie. Go ahead and say it! Or you could just force
me..beat me up like he always did. You don't even care about yourself
anyway, you disgusting pig!"
James, " Angela.."
Angela, " Don't touch me! You made me sick! You said you're wife Mary was
dead, right?"
James, " Yes. She was ill."
Angela, " Liar! I know about you. You didn't want her around anymore. You
probably found someone else!"
James, " That's ridicules. I never..."

The above is from this cutscene

After reading/watching this exchange one can come to the conclusion that Angela's father and now James had both been after Angela's box of Animal Crackers.

In all seriousness though, if you were a man and you had this exchange with a woman that you don't even really know; what would you assume the woman was referring to when she says you're only after one thing?
The game doesn't ever say, but it sure hints at it. (imo)

While I'm firmly on the side of "Angela was sexually abused", this has been addressed multiple times; this is in the English script only, whereas the Japanese script is different.

[nur_ein_tier]

While I'm firmly on the side of "Angela was sexually abused", this has been addressed multiple times; this is in the English script only, whereas the Japanese script is different.

Is different in what way? I doubt it matters, since apparently the intent of the writers was always to have Angela as the victim of sexual abuse, though.

Edit: I just got done doing an interview with Jeremy Blaustein, though I haven't posted it on my site yet, and he says the original team would laugh at the idea that anyone would think Angela was not abused.

[alone in the town]

I think this is an excellent point. While Thomas Orosco is, unquestionably, a vile human being, Silent Hill fans have, by and large, convicted him of rape in the court of public opinion based upon the absolute flimsiest of evidence.

She's a video game character, we can't exactly call in the special victims unit and do a rape kit. Because she's fictional, I think the use of the words like "force me to do it" imply sexual assault and they would not be there otherwise. Sure, she could be imagining it, but I don't think they'd probably do that in a video game.

Blaustein stated in another interview in a podcast that, even before the sh2 script happened, they were talking about incest themes, and I think he said it probably wouldn't fly in America, having TOO much in the way of incest themes. And then in the other interview, he mentioned that they had always been talking about sexual abuse. Just because he didn't translate everything word for word doesn't make him a bad translator. From what I can tell, he's been highly praised for his work BECAUSE he attempts to make it sound natural for the audience when localizing.

(Sorry, but I work as a translator and it pisses me off when people seem to think the best translation is always a word for word translation. Idiomatic usage and the target audience and their culture is a very important consideration. Also, FFS, it's fiction. There is no way to really say for certain what happened,but I think sexual assault is heavily implied)

To be fair to myself, after Ratiocinator posted the Blaustein interview back in April, I accepted his take on the matter and have changed sides (again) in this debate.

However, I do think it's worthwhile questioning what appears to be the truth if there is some reason to question it. Another example similar to this one, and much more questionable, is Pyramid Head's status as a rapist. When it came to Angela, I was more of a devil's advocate: I thought there was good reason to suspect rape, but not enough in the game to call it definitive truth. This has, of course, been addressed by Blaustein. With Pyramid Head, I actively disbelieve the idea that he's raping monsters, because it's extremely difficult to justify this concept thematically. Either way, the idea is to question, and this is important in a series which once had a character tell a lie about Samael which resulted in most of the fanbase being suckered for years. In the cases of both Angela and to a greater extent, Pyramid Head, most of the fanbase simply takes what it sees at face-value, and becomes upset at the mere suggestion that they examine alternative explanations for what they see.

[nur_ein_tier]

I would say "sexual abuse," not "rape." Just because we don't know exactly what, but I just think the dialog suggests some sort of sexual abuse, which could mean a lot of things.

Blaustein also thinks it's absurd that anyone questions whether PH is raping things, because the sexual violence themes were discussed by the Japanese team from the beginning, before any version of the script was finalized. (Just because we don't see penetration doesn't mean they didn't intend it to be sexual; they could not get away with actually showing PH's junk.)

I tend to be of the opinion that the sexual themes are obvious and put in this game for a reason.

[alone in the town]

I would have loved to shoot questions with Mr. Blaustein on that topic, because I remain unconvinced that Pyramid Head as rapist makes any thematic sense. Throwing it in there as merely one expression of sexual violence in a game with several makes it sound really stupid, because other such expressions have a theme and make sense to the character involved.

My biggest problem with that idea is that, if Pyramid Head really is intended to exhibit sexuality, it is not done with any consistency or context. It takes the complexities of violence and sexuality and wastes it on what amounts to nothing more than a pair of shock scenes, a level to which these games hardly ever lower themselves--especially when you consider the fact that a majority of the violence and sexuality in this game is subtle and implied, much more than is explicitly shown.

[amphreded]

Even if the scene involving Pyramid Head and mannequins is supposedly sexually explicit, I'd still feel that it would not degenerate into shock scene as you wrote, Alone. Explicit scenes can still contain underlying messages and other subtleties.
Can you elaborate more on what you wrote as "thematic sense" and "consistency or context"? I'm just trying to get a better understanding of your stance.
I can only half-guess that you are saying Pyramid Head physically tormenting the mannequins is to be drawn in comparison with James tormenting Mary, both physically and emotionally; however, sexual abuse would not fit with James' persona since he was unlikely to sexually abuse Mary when she was still alive, thus Pyramid Head raping mannequins would be inconsistent in this sense.
I do firmly believe that James didn't sexually abuse Mary at any point when she was still alive. Many people had interpreted this scene as a representation of James' repressed anger and sexual desire. While I agree that the scene depicts anger and sex, I also feel that the sex is quite displaced - in a sense that I do not expect James' sexual frustration to direct towards Mary, represented by mannequins, but rather elsewhere.
Nevertheless, because of my view on how Pyramid Head was holding up the mannequins as well as the scene being an allusion to Blue Velvet's highly sexual scene, I came to regard this scene in Silent Hill 2 as sexual. As much as I feel the sexual representation can be channeled elsewhere, I accepted it and tried to come up with reasons why the creators directed the scene in such fashion. All I could think of is the idea, albeit overly-used, from many predecessors working in field of psychology and psychoanalysis, that violence and sex are often intermingled. It's far from a concrete explanation, but considering how the series are inspired by such fields, it's plausible to think that the sexuality in the scene is aimed to enhance the psychological aspect of the game rather than to fit into the context. I understand that for some people such enhancement is nothing but shock value though.