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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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>Yeah, 'cuz I clearly lack a modicum of "reading comprehension." That must be it. . . . As many insults as there are being thrown around in this thread, I'm surprised at how many of 'em are from moderators.

Stop flattering yourself. Don't think you're so special that I'm singling you out personally, Tom. :roll:

>I don't consider either to be evidence.

Good for you. I really don't consider your interpretation to be evidence, either. And as someone mentioned--um, Japanese script, anyone?

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Historical Society Historian
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>We're easily able to conceive of a father being evil enough to rape and brutalize his own child but unable to conceive of a mother that evil? Isn't that a little bit of a gender biased assertion?

There is enough evidence in the game that shows us that Thomas Orosco is not a nice person. It's easy to imagine the worst of him. We all agree that he was abusive to Angela on some level.

The mother is a different story. We hardly know anything about her and there's really nothing to indicate that the mother is capable of what you suggest.

Angela despises her father with a passion; she is trying to find peace in her mother. We can't just go and assume the worst for the mother.

>She likely at first denied that it happened, then got irrationally angry at Angela for even making the claim, followed by an extremely insensitive remark to her that she must have deserved it.

Based on what, Droo?

>Either way, I don't think you can fall back on a "well, mothers just don't do that sort of thing". This isn't the 1920s anymore.

You mean to tell me that you can conveniently fall back on "well, mothers can do that sort of thing," since it's the 21st century...

Sorry, Droo. You've provided nothing but a "what-if" scenario. An unlikely "what-if" scenario might I add. Acceptable for writing fan-fiction maybe, but it really has no place in debates like this one.

At least, try to prove that the mother is like what you described above. Terms like "burden of proof" exist for a reason.

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Historical Society Historian
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>An unlikely "what-if" scenario might I add.

Well that's a highly subjective statement that depends on individual minds and their take on things. I think it unlikely for anyone to sit there with a serious face and type that Angela was just physically abused or that there is no sexual imagery involved in what glimpses of 'her' world we see (or whatever it is when James and Angela meet). Congratulations, we've come to an opinion stalemate.




Again, Japanese script? Show it or please stop flaunting it as a tome of truth (not directed at you, Burning Man).

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Just Passing Through
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None of that proves that she was only physically abused. So, no, he's nowhere near from being right. He has only sucessfully brought the topic to middle ground. That, itself, is admirable.


There's not conclusive evidence that Angela was only physically abused, and it is a possibility that she was sexually abused. But you're right. Ultimately, we're at a middle ground here.

But still MMY has not pointed toward anything that outright refutes Angela's rape scenario, although there is evidence (evidence is not the same thing as proof) that suggest that Angela was raped and not only physically abused.


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RESPECT
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>you still years later insist until your nose bleeds that Rebirth is the true ending of SH2.
When I have said that recently? or even in the past year?

>I can see no reason for her to say such a thing unless she was coming from the usual mental viewpoint of a repeatedly sexually abused child
When I was growing up I remember hearing the statement "men are only after one thing" countless times—on television, film, radio, from parents, teachers, &c. The statement is pretty common and does not come strictly from victims of sexual abuse. To say that it does, again, is an equivocal fallacy.

>Stop flattering yourself. Don't think you're so special that I'm singling you out personally
This has nothing to do w/ "flattery." At the time of your post, I was the only proponent in this thread of Angela not being raped. Unless you were talking to Burning Man in the future as well, then, yes, you were singling me out.

>I think it unlikely for anyone to sit there with a serious face and type that Angela was just physically abused
Fortunately we're talking about evidence and not personal opinion. I assure you: I'm as straight-faced as ever.

>Again, Japanese script?
The Japanese script, as I've stated before—I've been doing a lot of reiterating in here . . .—is available in all versions of Silent Hill 2.

>There's not conclusive evidence that Angela was only physically abused
There is explicit evidence to say that she was physically abused. There is a lot of what-if scenarios to imply that she was raped.
    evidence > supposition
>MMY has not pointed toward anything that outright refutes Angela's rape scenario
Have you not been reading?

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Moderator
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Angela says that her mother said that she got what she deserved. Whether Angela was only physically abused or sexually abused, her mother still said it. Either way, that paints Mrs. Orosco as not a very nice person, either.

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A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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RESPECT
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And, as brought up earlier, we can't assume that Angela's mother was a terrible person w/out evidence. Parents say children—theirs and others—"deserve" a lot of things.

However, no parents says their child deserves to be raped.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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MMY wrote:
RD7: MMY has not pointed toward anything that outright refutes Angela's rape scenario.

MMY: Have you not been reading?


Yeah, and all you've used are the lack of the use force in the Japanese script, penises don't look like pistons, there are two figures instead of one in the fire room, not everyone who wears sweaters are rape victims, physically abused victims act similar to sexually abused victims, the use of the word " beat ", and numerous instances where you shot down possible conclusive evidence of a direct sexual abuse reference.

All you've done is disprove definate evidence of sexual abuse. That does not equal definate proof of *only* physical abuse. Yes, there was physical abuse ( evidenced by the word " beat " ), but sexually abused victims are often beat too, so that doesn't really prove squat that she was only physically beaten. The key word is only.


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Moderator
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I think it's reasonable to say, given the last six pages of debate, that the matter is indeterminate either way, and ultimately this is going to have to come down to a subjective decision on which side you want to subscribe to.

I can't be proven conclusively correct OR incorrect, and the same applies to Tommy.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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RESPECT
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Do you just not understand that officially Angela was physically abused and that theoretically she was raped? and that because one is absolutely true and the other is not, the one that is true takes precedence over the other?

Burning Man and I have proved that she was physically abused. You have not proved that she was raped.

Necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Moderator
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I'm not saying she wasn't physically abused. I'm saying she wasn't ONLY physically abused.

People generally don't gently rape someone. It's a given that she was smacked around a bit. Your position is that she is ONLY physically abused, and that she was NOT sexually abused. I say she was BOTH physically AND sexually abused. These particular assertions are indeterminate.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
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>The Japanese script, as I've stated before—I've been doing a lot of reiterating in here . . .—is available in all versions of Silent Hill 2.

Well la-dee-effin-da -- but that doesn't mean any of us can READ it. And unless you have somehow mastered the Japanese language in the two months we haven't been talking, I fail to see how you falling back on saying that JP script > US script has any merit whatsoever. Should I have specifically pointed out that a TRANSLATION IS BEING REQUESTED HERE? Maybe with some blinking neon font and bright shining lights? Because, once again, I thought that was a given indication since people are asking about the script.

>Unless you were talking to Burning Man in the future as well, then, yes, you were singling me out.

No. Really.

>I assure you: I'm as straight-faced as ever.

Always srs about your bsns.


To be serious myself here for a moment, it really does seem to be indicative in Angela's behavior. Her obvious fear or disgust at being touched (pulling a knife on James and then yelling at him not to touch her) isn't only limited to a physical abuse trauma-victim. I'm really not trying to say "I KNOW MORE THAN U BLAH BLAH FROM MY LERNINS" so please bear that in mind with what I'm about to say, but a lot of it has to do with, again, Angela's reactions and personal experience. Angela starts retching and nearly vomits when she's describing what her father did and, again, I'm not saying that physical abuse victims can't react the same way, but that powerful disgust and that powerful bodily reaction is just so in line also with victims of sexual abuse. To even think about it makes you want to vomit--to say it out loud would make it even worse.

And isn't all this hoopla about "no mother being that mean blah blah no mother would ever say her daughter deserves to be raped" a bunch of crap since that line is in the English script? And, correct me if I'm wrong, MMY is touting the superiority of the Japanese one? So unless you can find that line's exact duplicate in the Japanese script I'd stop using it to help you out.

People say a lot of terrible things to one another--yeah, even parents to their children. I find it beyond frustrating that none of you would think that Angela saying that she deserved it is VICTIM'S FUCKING GUILT, and that her attributing this statement to her mother's feelings is obviously the slant of a traumatized mind.

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Historical Society Historian
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>And isn't all this hoopla about "no mother being that mean blah blah no mother would ever say her daughter deserves to be raped" a bunch of crap since that line is in the English script?

I was actually waiting for Droo to bring that up, but instead he told me it was not 1920s...

I'll explain why it's not crap without having to use the Japanese script.

(Japanese scripts are all well and good, but if you don't know what it says, then you don't need to use it.)

Bare with me here.

Frankly, we do not know that Angela's mother actually said that she deserved to be raped. Yes, it says so in the English script, but only through Angela herself.

You and I agree that Angela is on a guilt trip, and her mind is beyond repair. She came to Silent Hill and manifested a collection of her deeply rooted fears, and called it "daddy".

So, I ask you-

Is it possible for Angela to have conjured up a "mommy" as well? And, if Angela is guilt-ridden by this time, what would be worse than to have your most beloved tell you that you deserved it?

That is more believable to me than to have Angela's mother actually say those lines.

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My Bestsellers Clerk
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MMY wrote:
...and that because one is absolutely true and the other is not, the one that is true takes precedence over the other?

Burning Man and I have proved that she was physically abused. You have not proved that she was raped.

Necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit.


Why does it have precedence as the " only " thing that happened though, especially when there is so much suggestion that more than that " only " happened?

For example:

You and I are outside a room. In the room is a third person. The door is closed. We hear a gunshot. We open the door and find the third person dead but there is no suicide note. However, there is a noose and a record playing of a song about suicide. No one else is in the room and there is no other entryway into the room. You say this is not a suicide because there is no suicide note directly saying they wanted suicide. I say there is because the clues hint strongly even though there is no direct statement.

You claim that the only proof we see is a victim of a gunshot. Maybe he accidently killed himself. Maybe he was happy with life and happened to be playing a record that happens to play a suicide song. The noose is not a noose, but a coinicidental rope hanging from the ceiling.

So, in conclusion, because we only have direct proof of a gunshot wound and no direct proof of suicide, that it was not a suicide?

That's your logic there.


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Historical Society Historian
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@ RiceDaddy7: Without getting deep into this, that's not a very good example. It states that someone set up a noose, but then was shot as opposed to hanging from the noose and/or hanging from the noose and shot. I don't understand going through the extra work to set up a noose only to shoot oneself in the head... the noose could just as easily have been meant for someone else (like, say, if this was a skinhead with a penchant for emo music) and, yes, the scenario might be an accident... perhaps a fortunate accident, but one nonetheless.

Seriously, you would've been better off using "Fingerprints" instead of "Chekhov's Irresponsibly Placed Noose."

I recall assuming that Angela was raped until I read Burning Man's thoughts on the subject, which caused me to think about it more and conclude that she didn't necessarily have to be raped in order for the overall scenario to work, and life favors simplicity. From what I've gathered, Burning Man is not one to bullshit, and neither is MMY (though I have many points where I disagree with him, though those are mostly from the philosophical rather than factual angles), but character only goes so far. This whole thing would be helped greatly if we had an on-the-fly translation of that scene from the Japanese script. I'd do it myself, but I'm a beginner.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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I can't use fingerprints because you could prove fingerprints; we can't prove Angela was directly sexually abused.

Look, no one argues in favor that there definate proof of sexual abuse. I agree that if someone can provide a directly translated Japanese script that specifically indicates she was only physically abused, it would put everyone on the same page. However, if all there exists is the lack of the word " force ", that still isn't enough.

You have to account for the doorman's look. You have account for the pistons. You have account for Angela being so paranoid and why she reacts like a sexually abused victim. You have to account for the bloody crouch area.

We've heard what MMY have said regarding thost. That the doorman was a manifestation from James and it's his sexual frustration. That the pistons do not look like penises. That Angela's reactions could be a physically abused victim's too. And that there are two figures instead of one. But aside from the last example, all those arguments are weak counterpoints when proving it was *only* ( again, keyword being: only ) physical abuse.

Many have reason to believe it went beyond physical abuse.


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Historical Society Historian
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>Is it possible for Angela to have conjured up a "mommy" as well? And, if Angela is guilt-ridden by this time, what would be worse than to have your most beloved tell you that you deserved it?

That is more believable to me than to have Angela's mother actually say those lines.

Yes, it's quite possible. I never really thought Angela's mother seriously blamed her for anything, actually, only that it was just Angela's guilt maybe not fabricating it but at least making it out to be something more than what it was.

I guess my only concern with the mother being made up is the photograph you find after running into Angela the second time. Isn't a woman present in it? Granted, the photograph features Angela and her brother as children, so it is still possible that the mother died, but I thought it warranted mentioning.

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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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i asked like 20 posts ago about that script translation.
whats going on? i can't find it on the internet. does anyone actually even have it? isn't that one of the main crutches of a 'certain' argument?

sure it comes with the game, technically, but unless the audience you are trying to convince can all speak Japanese, MMY, no one is going to be convinced. usually i tend to side with you, too, but come on dude. that was brought up earlier in this thread and 7 pages later -- nothing.

i believe that the Silent Hill 2 I played heavily implied that Angela was sexually AS WELL AS physically abused. if you want me to believe differently, show me smoking gun in the JP script.

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Historical Society Historian
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It's true that there'll probably never be a definite answer to this. Though, in regards to opinions, I wonder what the SH2 novelization has to say about it. We in America have a lot of cultural baggage that the Japanese don't (for instance, child abuse and child molestation are much more intertwined in our culture), so it'd be interesting to see what the general response they have is. Again, would if I could, but I can't.

Clearly, everyone agrees that Angela was physically abused, the question really comes down to how much faith one is willing to put down on the assumption that she was sexually abused as well, with opinions ranging from MMY's "approaching zero" to my "possible, but unnecessary" to several others' "likely."

RiceDaddy7 wrote:
You have to account for the doorman's look. You have account for the pistons. You have account for Angela being so paranoid and why she reacts like a sexually abused victim. You have to account for the bloody crouch area.


I do have a couple of things to say about these, though. I was brought into this discussion 'cuz The Follower pointed me out to it and showed me both the video and a screencap of the scene in question (since my copy of SH2 is a state away at the moment). I couldn't conclude there was blood in the crotch area of the figures under metal sheets on the wall, in Angela's final scene. The shadow was too thick for me to make anything out definitely and on the outside of the right leg, it looked more like the metal was blackening or degrading, due to the heat, more than blood.

In regards to the doorman/Abstract Daddy/Ideal Father, looking at the CG art for the creature, there are several possibilities. I don't agree with any statement of "reclining" figures, since one of them clearly isn't. One is clearly dominant over the other. This leaves three possibilities: 1) a male dominating the female, doggy-style, 2) a female riding the male, like a cowgirl, or 3) a gender-ambiguous figure assaulting another figure from a dominant position with straight physical violence. Only options 1 and 3 have any violence or major disparity of power to them, so we'll focus on those.

One thing to remember is that Angela clearly sees her father. If she were to see what James sees, I don't think the first words out of her mouth would be "Daddy," considering that the creature barely looks human to start with, just as James never whispers "Mary" at the manniquins or Lying Figures. This means that the creature, however it looks to Angela, is being viewed from James's lens, which invariably relates it to Mary. I don't know how wild Mary is in bed (Maria's presence leads me to consider the possibility), but there's been no real evidence of James and Mary's sexual exploits or what roles they assume in the bedroom, nor any evidence of sexual violence in their past, which leaves the violence theory in regards to James (he did suffocate her on a bed, after all). Who knows what, specifically, Angela is seeing.

As for "what men want," I hear that from cynical women all the time... doesn't necessarily mean sexual abuse.

As for the pistons, I got nothing on that. It could mean something sexual, though nothing about the pistons, in and of themselves, suggests violence. Meanings could range from sexual activity with her father, sexual activity to salve the wounds inflicted by her father, or even a latent desire for a masculine power display - a sexual display tainted by memories of her father's abuse (case in point: James saves Angela through manliness, Angela rejects the power display with cynicism about male behavior). It could also be that the cigar is just a cigar, I really don't know.


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My Bestsellers Clerk
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Kenji wrote:
We in America have a lot of cultural baggage that the Japanese don't (for instance, child abuse and child molestation are much more intertwined in our culture)


Actually, all cultures have those issues, but react to them differently. The Japanese are not open to reporting instances of child molestation and what we call child abuse is what they call discipline. Rape is also seen differently and more leniantly in Japan too, I might add.

Besides, Team Silent are fans of American culture and have openly said they wanted Silent Hill to be as American-like as possible. I'm sure they've based their characters' issues more on American issues than they would Japanese issues. As much as they could understand anyway.

Kenji wrote:
One thing to remember is that Angela clearly sees her father. If she were to see what James sees, I don't think the first words out of her mouth would be "Daddy," considering that the creature barely looks human to start with, just as James never whispers "Mary" at the manniquins or Lying Figures. This means that the creature, however it looks to Angela, is being viewed from James's lens, which invariably relates it to Mary. I don't know how wild Mary is in bed (Maria's presence leads me to consider the possibility), but there's been no real evidence of James and Mary's sexual exploits or what roles they assume in the bedroom, nor any evidence of sexual violence in their past, which leaves the violence theory in regards to James (he did suffocate her on a bed, after all). Who knows what, specifically, Angela is seeing.


A good point EXCEPT...

You have to account for that when two victims of Silent Hill are within the same realm of one another, visions of what the others see may crossover. I, for one, believe Angela does see her father exactly like the doorman. It's exactly as James sees Mary as a demon in the final boss scene. Mary/demon to James is what Father/doorman is to Angela. No matter how weirdly distorted they appear, the characters recognize them. James recognizes Mary even when she was a weird demon. Therefore, it is not viewed through James lens. He is looking at him through Angela's lens. It's possible. After all, didn't he later on see her fire world too? Characters can see each others' worlds.

kenji wrote:
As for "what men want," I hear that from cynical women all the time... doesn't necessarily mean sexual abuse.


Yeah, but 99.9% of the time it means sex. Correct me if I'm wrong ladies.

kenji wrote:
As for the pistons, I got nothing on that. It could mean something sexual, though nothing about the pistons, in and of themselves, suggests violence. Meanings could range from sexual activity with her father, sexual activity to salve the wounds inflicted by her father, or even a latent desire for a masculine power display - a sexual display tainted by memories of her father's abuse (case in point: James saves Angela through manliness, Angela rejects the power display with cynicism about male behavior). It could also be that the cigar is just a cigar, I really don't know.


Trust me on this one: The pistons are there intentionally, that intention implies sex, and they are there specifically in Angela's scene. Put one two and three together. It equals sex. That, my friend, goes beyond Japanese/English script translations. It's also one of the most obvious statements of sexual activity relating to Angela and her father. The pistons, in no way, have anything to do with James. They are shown in Angela's personal boss fight with her dad.


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