Search FAQ

Login | Register


All times are UTC [ DST ]


It is currently 24 Nov 2020




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 462 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 24  Next
Author Message

RESPECT
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19439
Last seen at: #lfk
a) No one can say w/ certainty that the figures one the wall represent Angela. There are 2 of them, after all, and only 1 Angela. I have offered an alternate explanation. No one refuted that other than w/ "oh but it looks to me like this."

b) The "sexually themed monsters" aren't Angela's. They're James'. I have also provided an alternate explanation for the appearance of the Ideal Father and an explanation for the name. No one refuted that, either, except w/ "oh maybe the name is ironic." It's not.

c) The "use of 'force' in Angela's dialogue," for the nth time, is not in the Japanese script. Please have the courtesy to read the thread, where in most of my posts I have stated this. That line was an addition made by the English translator, Jeremy Blaustein, who has openly admitted to taking liberties w/ the script. According to the English translation, Mary blames James for not returning to Silent Hill together. In the Japanese script, she blames herself. This is significantly different.

d) I've watched a lot of porn in my day and not once have I seen a perfectly cylindrical penis w/ a flat top that resembles a piston.

So far no one is really providing any more "concrete evidence" to back up the claim that she was raped. I've heard the same few points over and over, and have refuted each of them.

>Jame's character can be viewed in a multitude of ways, none of them are right
Oh, but w/ Angela's character there's only one answer? Interesting. . . .

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Top
   
 

My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 24 Oct 2008
Notes left: 439
MMY wrote:
No, that isn't the "only evidence" I have, esp. if you've been paying attention you'll know that that line isn't in the Japanese script.


Okay, I am basing everything strictly on the English script. In it, James encounters Angela four times. I know you've played it 60+ times, but I'll list them here for everyone else reading this: 1.) In the graveyard 2.) In the room where she's on the floor staring at the knife 3.) The doorman boss fight 4.) In the room with fire. In the English script, only in one line did she said her dad beat her. You are right: This is evidence she was beaten. But it is not evidence enough what she was beaten for. Getting beaten for sexual abuse vs. physical abuse are two different psychologies.

And I agree with Droo, the Japanese script doesn't mean squat in this discussion. Obviously, Konami had a very thorough review of what was translated, and if they had a problem with it or if something were misinterpreted in a major way, they'd have revised it. Don't tell me that if there were ( hypothetically, since I didn't read the Japanese script ) obvious indications of physical abuse and they were taken out, that Konami would have let it slip by. That's why using the Japanese script card is a bad presentation of argument.

MMY wrote:
That is arguably the most tenuous leap I've read in this thread. She "know[s] all about" James in the sense that she knows what he did to Mary. He finds messages about her; she finds messages about him. I suspect that Angela found one of the 3 memos about how to obtain the other endings as well: "Choosing Death," "The Road to Tomorrow," and "How to be a Happy Couple." The "someone else" Angela is referring to is, then, Maria, as in "How to be a Happy Couple."


Angela, if you can't tell, is obviously very self-centered. Why would she remotely care about Mary/Maria? Besides, saying she might have found papers about James and specifically what they were is a bigger tenuous leap than any educated assumption that Angela is referring that James is " like all men " in the context of her dialogue.

MMY wrote:
That, too, is incredibly debatable. Krist. has offered a well-written essay on the subject, and I'm inclined to agree w/ her postulations.


Granted I haven't read the essay, but I'll just throw out my obvious reaction to that theory...if James believes he killed Mary out of mercy then he believes he did the right thing. If he believes he did the right thing, his mind wouldn't have blocked it out. The mind blocks out unplesant things as a defensive mechanism. But I'll read the essay before I comment more. Maybe this point was addressed in there.

MMY wrote:
I wouldn't consider it "obvious" when this discussion is still happening, years later. And please read the rest of the thread: I've offered my explanation of the figures already.


I liked your suggestion that it could be her family members. I've stated so. It's really the only solid argument you've made related to a game detail that is keeping you alive in this debate.

MMY wrote:
I've watched a lot of porn in my day and not once have I seen a perfectly cylindrical penis w/ a flat top that resembles a piston.


Hahaha. Yeah, but still, why are there pistons, flat penis or no flat penis? The motion at least looks sexual.


Last edited by RiceDaddy7 on 11 Nov 2008, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 25 Jul 2007
Notes left: 80
Last seen at: Indiana
MMY wrote:
a) No one can say w/ certainty that the figures one the wall represent Angela. There are 2 of them, after all, and only 1 Angela. I have offered an alternate explanation. No one refuted that other than w/ "oh but it looks to me like this."


This is Angela's stairway to Hell. It's Angela's world. Who else would it be?

Quote:
b) The "sexually themed monsters" aren't Angela's. They're James'. I have also provided an alternate explanation for the appearance of the Ideal Father and an explanation for the name. No one refuted that, either, except w/ "oh maybe the name is ironic." It's not
.

Even when Lost Memories clearly says it's Angelas?

Quote:
c) The "use of 'force' in Angela's dialogue," for the nth time, is not in the Japanese script. Please have the courtesy to read the thread, where in most of my posts I have stated this. That line was an addition made by the English translator, Jeremy Blaustein, who has openly admitted to taking liberties w/ the script. According to the English translation, Mary blames James for not returning to Silent Hill together. In the Japanese script, she blames herself. This is significantly different.


My bad man. Sorry.

Quote:
d) I've watched a lot of porn in my day and not once have I seen a perfectly cylindrical penis w/ a flat top that resembles a piston.


It's the imagery and the motion that counts. It doesn't have to be perfectly the same.

Quote:
>Jame's character can be viewed in a multitude of ways, none of them are right
Oh, but w/ Angela's character there's only one answer? Interesting. . . .


We know for a fact that James killed Mary. We don't know why he did it.

This discussion on Angela is focused on an idea that involves concrete events, not character motives. There's a difference.

Quote:
Granted I haven't read the essay, but I'll just throw out my obvious reaction to that theory...if James believes he killed Mary out of mercy then he believes he did the right thing. If he believes he did the right thing, his mind wouldn't have blocked it out. The mind blocks out unplesant things as a defensive mechanism. But I'll read the essay before I comment more. Maybe this point was addressed in there.


Killing someone no doubt has traumatic influence on the killer. If James killed Mary out of love for her, there's still the possibility that he regretted it afterwards. Aditionally, there's always the idea that it was a mixture of boredom/sympathy/love.


Top
   
 

My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 24 Oct 2008
Notes left: 439
Mmmm. But the whole idea of Maria strongly suggests he leaned towards more selfish motives. At gunpoint, I'd have to answer that he was sexually frustrated and he was sick of her bitching. Sympathy would probably be very low in his list of reasons.

Personally, if I was dying and suffering from a disease and someone I loved killed me out of mercy, I wouldn't create a purgatory to punish them. Obviously, Mary wanted revenge or justice.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 25 Jul 2007
Notes left: 80
Last seen at: Indiana
RiceDaddy7 wrote:
Mmmm. But the whole idea of Maria strongly suggests he leaned towards more selfish motives. At gunpoint, I'd have to answer that he was sexually frustrated and he was sick of her bitching. Sympathy would probably be very low in his list of reasons.

Personally, if I was dying and suffering from a disease and someone I loved killed me out of mercy, I wouldn't create a purgatory to punish them. Obviously, Mary wanted revenge or justice.


This, once again, is a debatle idea. Many people (I included) believe that Mary had no part whatsoever in the construction of James' Sient Hill. Instead, I assert that James himself desired punishment for his sins, and thus sought out his own punishment. I don't think it's necessary to even bring Mary into the equation.

It is interesting that one of the songs on the SH2 soundtrack is dubbed "Thanatos" (It specifically plays in the "In Water" Ending). The term means "death drive" in Freudian psychology. James' desire for punishment can be equated with James' desire to embrace death, as he feels it is what he deserves after killing Mary.


Top
   
 

My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 24 Oct 2008
Notes left: 439
Okay, if we go with that idea, there's still the theme of punishment that must be accounted for. While mercy killing a loved one is seriously a difficult choice, it is not something one believes they deserve punishment.


Top
   
 

Just Passing Through
 Post subject:

Missing since: 25 Jul 2007
Notes left: 80
Last seen at: Indiana
RiceDaddy7 wrote:
Okay, if we go with that idea, there's still the theme of punishment that must be accounted for. While mercy killing a loved one is seriously a difficult choice, it is not something one believes they deserve punishment.


Dude, it still might affect his mind to where he regrets his action. Maybe his motives were in majority selfish? I'm not denying it.

And....I'm going to do something strange and say that MMY is...correct. There's nothing here to say that without a doubt, Angela was raped. So...yeah. Although I do think it might be hinted at here and there.


Top
   
 

My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 24 Oct 2008
Notes left: 439
Well, that's my point. His motives were mostly selfish. Therefore, he most likely didn't consider her well-being a high priority. This points away from the possibility that he killed her primarily for mercy.

And if MMY's point was to say that there is no evidence to conclusively say she was either only physically abused or sexually abused, then yeah, he'd be right. But he's going as far as saying she was only physically abused, and he hasn't done anything to prove that. If we had to guess which one happened, there is loose second-hand evidence that points more towards sexual abuse.

So far, by my recollection, MMY has used these arguments:

- The Japan script is different.
- All the symptoms of a sexually abused victim is the same as a physically abused one.
- There are two figures instead of one.
- There was the use of the word " beat " said by Angela in the script.
- There is no direct mention of sexual abuse, therefore that means there was none.

None of that proves that she was only physically abused. So, no, he's nowhere near from being right. He has only sucessfully brought the topic to middle ground. That, itself, is admirable.


Last edited by RiceDaddy7 on 11 Nov 2008, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
>there is loose second-hand evidence that points more towards sexual abuse.

There is nothing loose about the scene with Angela in that creepster womb/penetration room. Nothing loose about it at all, in fact. One only needs to have a grasp of reading comprehension to 'get' it.

And, seriously now. Thrusting pistons. All over the room. It couldn't be more obvious unless they showed you the goddamn thing happening to her.

ETA: Granted I'm cranky and I have a bias, but. You know. Trust me on this. I've got a ~sexual abuse victim sixth sense~. Even if they aren't real people.

_________________
I'm not dead yet, dammit.


Top
   
 

My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 24 Oct 2008
Notes left: 439
Heh. Yeah, but you're talking to people who demand anything less than the characters shouting they were sexually abused as first-hand evidence. I'm with you, I think there's more than enough to confidently proclaim she was sexually abused.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11387
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Quote:
Hah. Hahahaha. To you, everyone is an asshole. Get some therapy.


No, not everyone. I get along with most of the forumites here. I do tend to call people an asshole when they drag me into a thread for an insult when I haven't even posted in it. Seriously, what the fuck did I ever do to you? Did our argument upset you that much?

Quote:
>there is loose second-hand evidence that points more towards sexual abuse.

There is nothing loose about the scene with Angela in that creepster womb/penetration room. Nothing loose about it at all, in fact. One only needs to have a grasp of reading comprehension to 'get' it.

And, seriously now. Thrusting pistons. All over the room. It couldn't be more obvious unless they showed you the goddamn thing happening to her.

ETA: Granted I'm cranky and I have a bias, but. You know. Trust me on this. I've got a ~sexual abuse victim sixth sense~. Even if they aren't real people.


Quoted for truth. Frankly, I don't see why everyone is making such a big deal out of Angela NOT being sexually abused. Especially since there's such a strong theme of sex throughout the game anyway, and there's really no evidence that says she WASN'T.

_________________
BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:

Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Krist. wrote:
And, seriously now. Thrusting pistons. All over the room. It couldn't be more obvious unless they showed you the goddamn thing happening to her.

Perhaps it's Angela's manifestation of what she thinks James wants of her.

_________________
© 2003-2009 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.


Top
   
 

My Bestsellers Clerk
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 24 Oct 2008
Notes left: 439
You mean, like, sex? That would also imply sexual abuse then. The pistons symbolize sex because they go in and out in and out in and out in and out.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:

Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
>You mean, like, sex? That would also imply sexual abuse then.

I don't think implications work like that, though.

The problem with the "rape theory" is that it conveniently assumes a rather unlikely character for her mother.

I tried to make sense out it at first. You know, a mother who would tell her daughter that she deserved to be raped for god knows what reason.

It didn't make any sense. Who the hell tells her own daughter that? And, even so, under what circumstances? Silent Hill is work of fiction, sure, but character backgrounds are at least believable.

On the other hand, it's possible for mothers to tell their children that they deserve a beating if they did something wrong. Not the kindest of parents, I'm sure, but it does happen.

_________________
© 2003-2009 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:

Missing since: 24 Jun 2007
Notes left: 2121
Burning Man wrote:
Krist. wrote:
And, seriously now. Thrusting pistons. All over the room. It couldn't be more obvious unless they showed you the goddamn thing happening to her.

Perhaps it's Angela's manifestation of what she thinks James wants of her.


why would she be so predisposed toward that?

you could argue simple paranoia, but on top of everything else (the imagery/symbolism)? not really.

_________________
no longer active. thanks for the memories.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:

Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
>you could argue simple paranoia, but on top of everything else (the imagery/symbolism)? not really.

Just going by what the English script says. She does question why James is trying to be nice to her. That is paranoia.

Unfortunately, imagery/symbolism is based on personal interpretation. Sure, a majority could agree on one thing, but it doesn't always make it the correct interpretation.

But, as I've mentioned before, the reason I don't believe in the "rape theory" is because of how unlikely it is of a mother to be that evil. "Everything else" is only secondary. Interpretations can change to fit a particular belief. Her mother's assumed character is a bit hard to swallow.

_________________
© 2003-2009 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.


Top
   
 

Historical Society Historian
 Post subject:

Missing since: 24 Jun 2007
Notes left: 2121
Burning Man wrote:
Just going by what the English script says. She does question why James is trying to be nice to her. That is paranoia.


yes, and what's her reason for the paranoia? i would assume fear of rape or something similar.


Burning Man wrote:
Unfortunately, imagery/symbolism is based on personal interpretation.


aren't most of the current theories, as well? team silent only supplies so many direct answers.


Burning Man wrote:
But, as I've mentioned before, the reason I don't believe in the "rape theory" is because of how unlikely it is of a mother to be that evil.


true. but what if her mother didn't get the whole story? apologies if it was explicitly stated somewhere that angela revealed the full extent of her abuse to her; i don't remember.

_________________
no longer active. thanks for the memories.


Top
   
 

RESPECT
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19439
Last seen at: #lfk
>This is Angela's stairway to Hell. It's Angela's world. Who else would it be?
I'll say this again: Please have the courtesy to read the thread. I've explained my interpretation of the 2 figures.

>Even when Lost Memories clearly says it's Angelas?
Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicles only says it's a "symbol of Angela's past." I've never disputed that. However, LM:SHC also states, in the same section, that the monsters are "grotesque creatures brought forth by James, who is tormented by feelings of guilt." You can't pick and choose which monsters James manifested.

>None of that proves that she was only physically abused.
Yet I've still successfully refuted the possibility that she was raped while presenting a counter-argument of her being physically abused w/ in-game evidence—as Burning Man has as well—w/out relying on supposition.

>there is loose second-hand evidence that points more towards sexual abuse.
I prefer evidence over guesswork.

>One only needs to have a grasp of reading comprehension to 'get' it.
Yeah, 'cuz I clearly lack a modicum of "reading comprehension." That must be it. . . . As many insults as there are being thrown around in this thread, I'm surprised at how many of 'em are from moderators.

>It couldn't be more obvious unless they showed you the goddamn thing happening
Again, the "answer" clearly isn't obvious when this is still being discussed, and has been years ago. If there was irrefutable proof that Angela was raped, I wouldn't have brought this up. However, there isn't. There are ideas to make Angela a more tragic character; there are stories to make it possible. I don't consider either to be evidence.

>you're talking to people who demand anything less than the characters shouting [. . .]
When specific answers are involved, yes, I do require as much. Asseverating that Angela was raped as a fact is ludicrous when there's evidence against it.

>why would she be so predisposed toward that?
Angela does tell James that he's "only after one thing." And, according to RiceDaddy7, she's right. However, just because she thinks that's what James wants doesn't mean she's been raped in the past.

>what's her reason for the paranoia?
Fear of being attacked. Abused animals react in a similar way: If they've been neglected and hit frequently, when someone raisees a hand toward the animal, it startles and cowers. Angela responds in the same way.

_________________
This post is the property of its author and is not to be used elsewhere without explicit permission from the author.

. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


Top
   
 

Cafe5to2 Waitress
 Post subject:
     
         
  User avatar  
     
     

Missing since: 23 May 2004
Notes left: 233
Last seen at: Proud citizen of Portlandia.
....what does the Japanese script say during that scene?
i can't believe in all these pages of arguing that no one has posted it.

i've scoured the internet for a copy, but to no avail.

_________________
"Fault always lies in the same place, my fine babies: with him weak enough to lay blame."
"The lies and the mist are not they but I. You all know that I am One. Yes, and the One is I."


Top
   
 

Moderator
 Post subject:

Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12264
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
MMY wrote:
>As in, she knows what men really want. All men are the same.
That is arguably the most tenuous leap I've read in this thread. She "know[s] all about" James in the sense that she knows what he did to Mary. He finds messages about her; she finds messages about him. I suspect that Angela found one of the 3 memos about how to obtain the other endings as well: "Choosing Death," "The Road to Tomorrow," and "How to be a Happy Couple." The "someone else" Angela is referring to is, then, Maria, as in "How to be a Happy Couple."



How is this the most tenuous leap?

Quote:
Angela: Oh, I get it. You're trying to be nice to me, right? I know what you're up to. You're only after ONE THING.


I don't see why it's tenuous to think that this is a general androgynist statement on Angela's part. Sure, she knows about James killing Mary, but he doesn't know about Maria. She has no way of knowing that sexual frustration and list play a big part in his personal nightmare. All she knows is that James killed Mary. She seems to be making an accusation of James being after sex based on his gender alone. I can see no reason for her to say such a thing unless she was coming from the usual mental viewpoint of a repeatedly sexually abused child, and becoming a manhater.

I have provided evidence to support my claims that Angela was sexually abused. It may not be conclusive, but it's refutable on its fundamental levels. You have not DISPROVEN any of my evidence, merely presented an alternative interpretation of the evidence. That said, my evidence still supports the rape scenario as well.

For someone who claims to like evidence so much, Tommy, I find it interesting that you still years later insist until your nose bleeds that Rebirth is the true ending of SH2. There may be evidence to back you up, but, much like in this instance, there is also evidence to refute or suggest otherwise. That argument isn't really that much stronger or more airtight than mine.

Burning Man wrote:
But, as I've mentioned before, the reason I don't believe in the "rape theory" is because of how unlikely it is of a mother to be that evil.


We're easily able to conceive of a father being evil enough to rape and brutalize his own child but unable to conceive of a mother that evil? Isn't that a little bit of a gender biased assertion? There are many instances I have read about where a mother responds to discovery of her daughter's sexual abuse at tha hands of her husband with anger or even jealousy. She likely at first denied that it happened, then got irrationally angry at Angela for even making the claim, followed by an extremely insensitive remark to her that she must have deserved it.

Either way, I don't think you can fall back on a "well, mothers just don't do that sort of thing". This isn't the 1920s anymore. We are full and well aware of some of the terrible, terrible things that mother sometimes will do to their own flesh and blood.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 462 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 24  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: