Why Laura Didn't Find Mary

[jthomp1286]

So what about James? Why can he visit Mary? Doesn't HE need to realize the finality of what he did? It's a fallacy. You're looking at it from a real-world perspective, but ot Mary, it's more important to tend to Laura's emotional stability and happiness than to enforce a "real world value" that doesn't exist in the SH universe.

James is also an adult. And he becomes abundantly aware of what he did and eventually copes with it. One of the first points I made was this was James and Mary's story. Their life, their struggle, their love. Also, not everything is fantasy in SH. You can't just toss in the "fantasy world" card because its convenient.

Also, only the Leave ending guarantees that Laura leaves, and that's what we're discussing.

There's no possible way you can know that for sure. She isn't even mentioned in the others. But its irrelevant.

Yea, but she hates James and isn't listening to him.

Laura walking beside James at the end would say otherwise. Mary simply saying "Oh he murdered me because he felt sorry for me and wanted me to stop suffering. There now, doesn't that make it all better, Laura?" It just doesn't stand. In fact, Mary in a way already covers James in her letter to Laura.

And Laura, about James... I know you hate him because you think he isn't nice to me, but please give him a chance. ....But underneath he's really a sweet person.

He obviously doesn't care about Mary in the same way that the other two do. Hell, Frank and James didn't even seem to be on very good terms.

Pure speculation. We have no idea what kind of relationship James and Mary had with him. He says they disappeared, that's all.

[AuraTwilight]

James is also an adult. And he becomes abundantly aware of what he did and eventually copes with it. One of the first points I made was this was James and Mary's story. Their life, their struggle, their love. Also, not everything is fantasy in SH. You can't just toss in the "fantasy world" card because its convenient.

I wasn't using "the fantasy world card", but Death isn't final in Silent Hill. I can think of five exceptions off the top of my head. Besides, it can't possibly hurt to visit Laura. She'd more likely write it off as a dream later in life instead of start permanently thinking people can just come back, or atleast have a healthy belief in an afterlife.

There's no possible way you can know that for sure. She isn't even mentioned in the others. But its irrelevant.

Right. Leave is the only one that GUARANTEES it.

Laura walking beside James at the end would say otherwise. Mary simply saying "Oh he murdered me because he felt sorry for me and wanted me to stop suffering. There now, doesn't that make it all better, Laura?" It just doesn't stand. In fact, Mary in a way already covers James in her letter to Laura.

Either way, something changes Laura's mind somewhere inbetween the two scenes, and there's no real reason it can't be Mary, and atleast a couple reasons why it can.

Pure speculation. We have no idea what kind of relationship James and Mary had with him. He says they disappeared, that's all.

It doesn't seem to bother Frank too much, and since James doesn't contact Frank in any of the endings where he lives makes it a damn good guess.

[BodyHorror]

Have you even READ "Final Encounters"?

Where can one do that?

[jthomp1286]

I wasn't using "the fantasy world card", but Death isn't final in Silent Hill. I can think of five exceptions off the top of my head. Besides, it can't possibly hurt to visit Laura. She'd more likely write it off as a dream later in life instead of start permanently thinking people can just come back, or atleast have a healthy belief in an afterlife.

I'm not saying she can't believe in an afterlife, even I believe in that. Laura doesn't know anything about Silent Hill other than what Mary has shown and told her. She doens't death isn't always final in Silent Hill. But thats irrelevant. If she believes later that it was a dream she may also come to believe it never happened. However, if she has the same sort of conversation with James at the end of the game, that's real and that happened.

Either way, something changes Laura's mind somewhere inbetween the two scenes, and there's no real reason it can't be Mary, and atleast a couple reasons why it can.

And several reasons that I've already pointed out why it could be James. I never claim to know what happens between them, however it is my belief they have some sort of conversation and Laura understands James, his position and what Mary would have wanted.

It doesn't seem to bother Frank too much, and since James doesn't contact Frank in any of the endings where he lives makes it a damn good guess.

I'm sure that conversation would go well, "Hey Dad, I killed Mary, but she forgave me. Oh by the way, I have a daughter now. You'll never meet her though. Kthxbye."

[AuraTwilight]

Where can one do that?

In the "Indian Runner" section of the forum. It's a fanfic.

I'm not saying she can't believe in an afterlife, even I believe in that. Laura doesn't know anything about Silent Hill other than what Mary has shown and told her. She doens't death isn't always final in Silent Hill. But thats irrelevant. If she believes later that it was a dream she may also come to believe it never happened. However, if she has the same sort of conversation with James at the end of the game, that's real and that happened.

Either way, you're missing the point here. James doesn't have the power to win Laura over to his side on his own, only Mary has that ability over Laura, and helping her is much more important than enforcing the finality of her death.

And several reasons that I've already pointed out why it could be James. I never claim to know what happens between them, however it is my belief they have some sort of conversation and Laura understands James, his position and what Mary would have wanted.

And I've explained why Laura won't listen to James without DAMN good reason.

[Oddish]

As have I. Try to put yourself in Laura's shoes, JThomp. You're only eight years old, but you're absolutely desperate to find the one person who gives a damn about you. To that end, you've run away from the children's home where you reside, travelled God knows how many miles while eluding the police, and searched around an empty town for hours. You're tired, you're lonely, you're probably hungry as well, you just want to find your "mom" and crawl up into her lap and listen to her tell you that everything's going to be all right. and then James (whom you already disliked) tells you that she's gone, you'll never find her, you're all alone in the world once again, and it's his doing. You're probably going to do exactly what Laura did. And if you see him again, you're going to slip away. If you hear him call you, you're going to hide. and if he approaches you, you're going to flee as fast as your little legs can carry you. And hell is going to freeze into a giant sulfurous ice cube before you actually agree to live under the same roof as him. That's where things are at the end of the motel room sequence. As Aura said, the only person with the power to get through to Laura and explain why James did what he did is Mary herself. And if it's within Mary's power to go to her little girl and try to heal her hurts, it stands to reason that she's going to do it.

[AuraTwilight]

And a letter isn't going to do it, as Mary wasn't MURDERED at the time of the writing.

[jthomp1286]

Either way, you're missing the point here. James doesn't have the power to win Laura over to his side on his own...

Your opinion. I disagree and have provided reasons why over and over.

And I've explained why Laura won't listen to James without DAMN good reason.

And you have yet to present any convincing evidence to me of things that James couldn't have accomplished just like Mary. After playing through the game several times, and reading through the game script, Lost Memories, etc. I have no reason to believe Mary and Laura had a final meeting. Just because you believe it should happen one way, doesn't mean it actually did.

And a letter isn't going to do it, as Mary wasn't MURDERED at the time of the writing.

Its funny how you're feeding my own lines back now. This is what I've been suggesting all along. However, Mary asks Laura to take it easy on James in her letter, that deep down he's a good person. Why would Mary need to meet with Laura all over again to rehash these things? It doesn't make sense.

Oddish, according to the logic the both of you have presented Laura isn't just an eight year old like I've been trying to convey. And she doesn't need sleep, food or anything else for that matter because she's "stuck" in Silent Hill, right? You're little story was quite touching, but changes nothing because its still the way you see it. I have presented reasons why I believe it didn't happen. That's the way I see it based on what I've seen and read. You are welcome to disagree but it won't change anything.

[JuriDawn]

>Why would Mary need to meet with Laura all over again to rehash these things?
Because clearly the situation has changed since Mary was murdered. For all Laura knows, James might have been a good person as Mary wrote, but then he killed Mary, which makes him a bad person in her mind until someone convinces her otherwise.

[jthomp1286]

Because clearly the situation has changed since Mary was murdered. For all Laura knows, James might have been a good person as Mary wrote, but then he killed Mary, which makes him a bad person in her mind until someone convinces her otherwise.

True, and I believe that person to be none other than James himself. Yes she sees him as a murderer, but that's not the final word. There's nothing saying that she didn't see a different side of him after his final meeting with Mary.

[JuriDawn]

It just doesn't make sense to me that she would hang around Mary's killer long enough to see a different side of him.

[Oddish]

As I tried to tell you in the "touching little story" that you immediately discounted.

You have done an adequate job of explaining that Laura didn't HAVE to see Mary. But I have yet to see any proof that she didn't. And in my considered opinion, the fact that she was willing to leave with James suggests that she did. And if she did not, then she either leaves SH alone, or she reluctantly allows James to take her back to wherever she came from, or at least to a safe place. That's all I'm willing to concede.

[jthomp1286]

I have no proof she didn't. I never said I had actual concrete proof. I derived my opinion and my theory based solely on what I've seen in my own time playing the game, the theories I've read and any clues in Lost Memories. On the other hand, you have no concrete proof that a meeting took place either.

[Oddish]

I reread this topic recently, and decided to do a more indepth analysis of the question.

POINT 1 - Mary loved Laura and would want what was best for her.
Analysis - Certainly true. But would she leave the girl to recover on her own, in hopes that she could accept the finality of death and move on? Or would she say her farewells in person, to give her some closure? Valid arguments have been made on both sides.
Verdict - Inconclusive.

POINT 2 - Laura was in Silent Hill in the first place.
Analysis - To address this issue, we must think four-dimensionally. Laura’s presence in space is easy enough to explain: she inferred from Mary’s letter that her “mother” was in Silent Hill. But that still leaves the question of level of reality: why was she in Misty Silent Hill, as opposed to the ordinary resort town, as it intersects with our world. Most visitors to the town do not “descend” into the town’s alternate forms. Laura did, presumably because she had business there. The most logical business: finding Mary.
Verdict - Laura saw Mary.

POINT 3 - Laura was leaving Silent Hill directly, without looking back.
Analysis - This suggests that she has no further need to remain in the town. It could be argued that she knew beyond a doubt that Mary was not there, but this seems illogical. All she has is the word of a man she detests, and for good reason. Laura’s manner is identical to James’s: that of a person who has completed their business and is ready to move on. That suggests that she did what she came to do.
Verdict - Laura saw Mary.

POINT 4 - James and Laura left town seperated by a considerable distance.
Analysis - On the one hand, this suggests little or no connection between them, which could indicate that Laura remains angry with James, which would suggest that she did not see Mary. On the other hand, Laura is not fleeing, and James isn’t pursuing her. This would suggest that the two have made at least an uneasy peace with each other, which would not be particularly likely if Laura still believed him to have mercilessly slaughtered the only person who ever cared about her.
Verdict - Inconclusive.

Overall Verdict - There is no proof, and certainly a reasonable doubt, but the overall evidence suggests that Laura had her own final encounter with Mary, and received the same instructions as James did: go on with your life.

[jthomp1286]

Seriously? Ok, here we go.

Point 1 - This has been discussed ad nauseum.

Point 2 - Provides very little proof for the verdict. Its speculation at best. Laura was there to find her "mother" sure, but that doesn't mean she found her. The story doesn't always end the way we want it to.

Point 3 - It seems illogical to you, because of your opinion. There could just as easily be no reason to remain in the town, because of her conversation with James. This also has been discussed ad nauseum.

Point 4 - By your logic, if the amount of distance between them is an indication of their connection, if there was no connection should they have been miles apart? If there was a connection should they have been side by side, their steps perfectly synced? Suppose they were walking to James' car. As a child, did you always walk by your parents' side when walking to the car? Like most I would wager you ran to the car and waited for them to unlock the doors. Does that mean you had no connection to your parents?

Overall - Your points provide little to no more evidence than what was already presented previously. Once more, you believe, among others, they did have a final encounter. And once again, that is your prerogative and your perception of the story and the Leave ending. I believe otherwise and have presented reasons to support it.

[Oddish]

And I have agreed that your reasons have merit. The truth is, neither of us can prove anything, we're just debating because it's fun. At least. I think it is. Maybe you don't.

Point 2 - From what I understand, once you wind up in Silent Hill's alternate reality, the only way out is to resolve the issue brought you there in the first place. If there was no resolution for Laura, why was she even there? Why didn't she just find herself walking into a bustling resort town, the way most visitors would?

Point 3 - The only evidence we have is a few seconds of footage in the "Leave" ending, which only allows for speculation. Still I feel that the Laura's manner was that of someone who had accomplishes what she came to do and was ready to move on. if there had been no satisfactory resolution, our little hand-stomper would more likely have been lagging behind and looking over her shoulder a lot.

Point 4 - If Silent Hill had only one exit, it is entirely conceivable that Laura and James would both use it, even if they were not leaving the town together. But because she's not fleeing, I stand by my last: the two have formed an uneasy peace. Which, as I said before, is inconclusive.

We are both working with limited evidence, and therefore can only infer so much. The rest is speculation.

[PrescitedEntity]

Hmm... Giving my two cents.

Point 2: The resolution doesn't necessarily mean the original goal that brought the person there was achieved, IMO. Using James' story as a model, sure, he sought Mary and saw her, but seeing her did not bring him out of the alternate plane - that took the resolution of the underlying problem, his guilt. Laura, then, needed to resolve her underlying problem, loneliness and sadness. Silent Hill's grip seems to be around one's willingness to move on.

Point 3: She was lagging behind, depending on what you mean by that, and if she had no purpose in staying, why would she continually look back through heavy mist at a dreary town of disappointment?

Point 4: This is completely inconclusive on both ends - you could argue that Laura's following James out of convenience (I doubt she still has direction orientation after running around Silent Hill), and there's no reason Laura should flee James (and less that James should chase her). James, after all, only (sorta) cares for her well being, and her leaving Silent Hill, even if on her own terms distanced from him, is probably fine with him. Laura, meanwhile, probably figured that if James meant any harm to her, he had plenty of opportunity to do something earlier. The fact that she doesn't walk closer to him, IMO, throws a bit more weight on the side of her not having met Mary, because it suggests that she still hasn't made peace with him.

[AuraTwilight]

Or she's just running ahead to hurry the hell out of that lonely place, as children do. For all we know, she could turn back and shout, "C'mon, you're so slow."

[Oddish]

Using James' story as a model, sure, he sought Mary and saw her, but seeing her did not bring him out of the alternate plane - that took the resolution of the underlying problem, his guilt... Laura, then, needed to resolve her underlying problem, loneliness and sadness. Silent Hill's grip seems to be around one's willingness to move on.

I think it's less about resolving the issue than merely facing it. James is still alone, widowed, and will feel guilty about what he's done for years to come. Laura is still an unwanted orphan who has lost the only person who wanted to adopt her.


She was lagging behind, depending on what you mean by that,

No, she was ahead of James, not behind. Watch the ending on Youtube if you don't believe me.


if she had no purpose in staying, why would she continually look back through heavy mist at a dreary town of disappointment?

She had to know that she had no reason to stay. That suggests that she accomplished what she set out to do.


...and there's no reason Laura should flee James

Aside from the fact that he just admitted to killing her mommy.


James, after all, only (sorta) cares for her well being, and her leaving Silent Hill, even if on her own terms distanced from him, is probably fine with him.

I agree with that, too. As much as I love the idea of James adopting Laura and raising her as his own, the evidence doesn't support it. It is interesting that although JThomp doesn't believe that Laura saw Mary, he unwittingly supported the notion that she did in his previous response to Point 4, by suggesting a closer connection between the two.


The fact that she doesn't walk closer to him, IMO, throws a bit more weight on the side of her not having met Mary, because it suggests that she still hasn't made peace with him.

True. If James and Laura had left the town together (think the "Daddy" ending with two fewer kids), that would strengthen the evidence that Laura saw Mary, not weaken it, for obvuious reasons. That's why I listed Point 4 as Inconclusive.


Or she's just running ahead to hurry the hell out of that lonely place, as children do. For all we know, she could turn back and shout, "C'mon, you're so slow."

Which would suggest that she's completed her business in the town.

[PrescitedEntity]

No, she was ahead of James, not behind. Watch the ending on Youtube if you don't believe me.

Don't even need to. Proof that I am nocturnal and should not attempt argument during the daylight hours. Well, it definitely seems more in keeping with her brash character, and IMO, it suggest more of symbolism that she has put the awful affair behind her more readily than James. It doesn't give suggest either way as to why or how that came about.

She had to know that she had no reason to stay. That suggests that she accomplished what she set out to do.

I don't doubt that for her to leave Silent Hill, she must have reached her resolution. However, her resolution, IMO, doesn't necessitate seeing Mary. She simply had to have moved on, and it's not hard to imagine that she chose to because she simply tired of looking solely for one person.

Aside from the fact that he just admitted to killing her mommy.

Well, when he admitted it to her, she didn't immediately flee. Instead, she went up to him and pummeled on him a bit, suggesting that she doesn't fear him so much as hate him, or is furious with him. Not exactly a sensible thing to do, but she's just a little kid who doesn't seem to have much of a sense of self preservation.

I agree with that, too. As much as I love the idea of James adopting Laura and raising her as his own, the evidence doesn't support it. It is interesting that although JThomp doesn't believe that Laura saw Mary, he unwittingly supported the notion that she did in his previous response to Point 4, by suggesting a closer connection between the two.

Yeah, I really can't see anything but an awkward bond between the two of them, and a closer bond would support the idea that she saw Mary.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of your argument rests on the connection that her having reached the resolution of her troubles necessitates her having met with Mary. I don't think this is the case. James journey did begin with his search for Mary, but its resolution, IMO, is more hinged on the fact that he has resolved the underlying problem, his guilt and self-deception. For Laura, then, it'd be her resolving her problems of loneliness and loss. It doesn't follow that she must confront Mary to find her peace the way James seeks her forgiveness; if anything, thematically, it makes more sense, IMO that she learns to not depend on Mary's word to go on, but really, it's simply something that doesn't support either side.