Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

James got a letter. From a dead person. Oh dear.

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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by Augophthalmoses »

Most of your argument has been to compare the other side to whiny children regardless of their legitimate reasoning for not agreeing with you. That's...not a good idea.
It's because a few people ARE acting like whiny, self entitled children as have you for sputtering out "that's ass backwards!" without even elaborating as to what the heck you're talking about. There's no need to get antsy just become some people are able to detect a level of bias in regards to this theory. You guys would lying to say you're not getting this overly defensive simply because you like the theory.
The Labyrinth and Prison don't even, like, EXIST as James sees them. The Prison is probably an entirely different building and the Labyrinth doesn't exist at all, and the Prison is basically a symbol for "James thinks he's a bad person."
I haven't forgotten about that at all. But if you want a better example then just at Pete's Bowl-a-rama. There's no heavy symbolism regarding Mary there either. It's simply there to set up a bit of plot development for Eddie and Laura.
The entire "Silent Hill" section of SH3 was lifted lazily from SH2, right down to texture re-use, for budget and time concerns. SH2 doesn't really have that problem., and it's kind of intellectually insulting for you to think the comparison is at all valid.
The fact that SH3 reuses the location and a lot of the same textures is, again, common sense so I thought it would be one of those things that would go without saying. But that's beside the point and not at all what I'm getting at. The point of that post that you're missing is that SH3 uses Brookhaven to establish some symbolism and plot flashbacks towards various aspects of Heather's life and her personality even though the hospital in question wasn't where she stayed. So the hospital is only there for a symbolic reason (that and to find Leonard as the plot requires).

Just like how SH2 uses Brookhaven to go reference some aspects of James and Mary's personalities even though neither of them having stayed at this hospital. For example, the focus on several of the patients having mental problems, the three patients with names starting with "J", Maria's will to find Laura in Brookhaven mirroring Mary's personality...and I guess you could say Maria's (somewhat) peaceful demeanor in room S3 of Brookhaven when she's lying on the bed is meant to be a contrast to Mary's suffering when she was confined to her bed when she was sick.

Do you get the picture now that I've elaborated a bit more?
And, again, I'm not seeing any of what you said before. "The symbolism would be too obvious" isn't a good enough argument for Silent Hill. At all. Ever.
Now you're putting words in my mouth. I never said or implied it would be too obvious. Just that it would be too unnecessary because several different parts of the game already establish some of the things the "Mary stayed in Brookhaven" theory is meant to elaborate on. We already know how depressed Mary was and how her disease and depression affected both her and James. We already know she loved visiting Silent Hill.

I don't see it as necessary to have her be moved there just to reinforce those points and establish a connection that "Oh, Mary stayed in Brookhaven because she loved Silent Hill and she was depressed!" since the primary reason behind the theory (again, primary reason not the only reason before somebody comes in misinterpreting something else in my post).
No one is claiming that, which re-arouses my suspicion that you're not as read-up as you're claiming.
Dude, when you make posts like this these, there's no need for anybody to do any claiming. The way you go about trying to damage control any criticism towards the theory speaks for itself:
AuraTwilight wrote:This has to be one of the most ass-backwards things I've ever heard.

The rest of your post just makes me think you haven't actually read the theory in any depth, and are just making it out to be stupid because you don't like it.
AuraTwilight wrote:Alex420, you are seriously the last person on this forum with any right to criticize how people react to disagreements. If you don't have anything to contribute to the conversation, please butt out of it instead of trying to instigate shit.
It also doesn't mean he necessarily knows little details that won't come directly into play with his job, either. Most likely, he was told to generate something which fit what he was asked to do, like "something that represents [x]", rather than combing through the script and taking what he liked from it.
Good point indeed, but again you still don't know to what degree he was involved with the story. Even if it wasn't as much as we think it is, it still doesn't magically erase the fact he likely would have been privy to the story during the game's development. He was still in a position that would have opened the door for him to be knowledgeable about aspects of the games' story. If he says it isn't true and is sure of himself, that's good enough for me. Does it make him infallible? Of course not. But like I said, you don't even need his thoughts on the matter to recognize that this is just a mere theory with no concrete backing that solidifies it as being a true part of the story. With that in mind, you don't need a part of the staff to come forward and say "hey, that's not true."

Because then you'd have to give every single little fan theory would have to be given the time of day simply because the games aren't made to accommodate every single little thought the fandom is going to come up with.
Such a detail, of course, would really turn this debate around, though, wouldn't it?
Absolutely, but none of us really know anything about that now do we?
On top of that, though, he acts uncertainly half the time and is working from LITERALLY DECADE OLD memory, and I very doubt he just has a notebook of "Silent Hill plot details" lying on his desk.
Oh, give me a break. This isn't really a good thing to bring to the table. I don't exactly have any notebooks or word documents that I read 24/7 or whenever I'm talking about Silent Hill, but I'm still able to recall a notable wealth of information about the series simply by memory alone despite the game being over a decade old.

Furthermore, given he was much more involved with the game than any of us were, you're much less likely to forget stuff like that. Does he remember every entire little detail about every single thing within the first three games? Of course not. No game developer ever does. It still doesn't render what they have to say any less relevant.
He's not even making the statements officially where he has to be accountable for accuracy or generally be responsible for what he says, he's on his personal twitter.
Well, you'll have to settle for twitter discussions because it's the best and most well known place people have for interacting with him.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by KingCrimson »

To those who still maintain Mary stayed at Brookhaven in spite of Ito's statement to the contrary:

What would cause you to change your mind? If not even a definitive refutation from one of the game's designers is sufficient evidence to refute your theory, what could possibly be enough? As soon as I read the Twitter exchange, I thought, "The very next thing I read will be one or two people questioning Masahiro Ito's memory, his understanding, and/or his motives." And so it was.

I am not saying it's impossible for Ito to be mistaken, just that one should accept the explanation with the least contradictions (preferably none). Nothing makes LESS SENSE now that we know Mary stayed elsewhere. It may no longer be perfectly accurate to interpret certain details in a particular way, such as the rooftop diary or the first floor, but the alternative interpretations are still reasonable.

On the other hand, maintaining that Mary was a patient at Brookhaven not only contradicts the account of one of the game's biggest creative forces, it also requires some mental gymnastics to fit the English narrative (the diary writer had a family), the nature of Brookhaven itself (a mental health facility for violent offenders), the lack of reactions from James (despite mentioning every other location connected to Mary), and so on. None of those factors conclusively disprove the theory, but they make it harder to reconcile with what is known about the story.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by Alex420 »

I wasn't trying to "instigate shit", I was just saying I thought he had a legitimate point and thought saying it was "ass-backwards" was inappropriate.
AuraTwilight wrote:Look, I'm sorry, but I genuinely don't see how "Mary stayed at Brookhaven" makes the place "less significant", "less symbolic", or "cheapened." None of that makes any sense.
After James and Mary left Silent Hill after their vacation, I don't see the logic in Mary traveling all the way back to Silent Hill to treat a depression, especially without James by her side.
AuraTwilight wrote: Laura specifically went into Brookhaven to look for Mary.
This is speculation. If you remember correctly, she was running away from James and Maria at the time. Mary didn't stay at the Wood Side Apartments or Pete's Bowl-O-Rama. Also, I don't believe it's ever explicitly stated Laura went to Silent Hill to look for Mary. Her quote is:

"Me and Mary talked a lot about Silent Hill. She even showed me all her pictures. She really wanted to come back. That's why I'm here."


I personally believe Laura is in Silent Hill because she wants to visit the beautiful place Mary told her about, not that she legitimately believes Mary is there.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by AuraTwilight »

It's because a few people ARE acting like whiny, self entitled children as have you for sputtering out "that's ass backwards!" without even elaborating as to what the heck you're talking about. There's no need to get antsy just become some people are able to detect a level of bias in regards to this theory. You guys would lying to say you're not getting this overly defensive simply because you like the theory.
Alright, back up. The only people I've seen defending the theory from you are myself and Adversary, the latter of whom has been 100% calm and cordial to you, and I hardly see how it's "whiny", "self-entitled", or "childish" to call a comment ass-backwards because it strikes me as seemingly the exact opposite of what I find logical. You were the one who made statements without explaining them first and leaving others to fill in the blanks, so the fault is yours.

Secondly, you're making assumptions. While I like the "Mary stayed at Brookhaven" theory, I can honestly take or leave it. I'm not committed to it. However, what I am opposed to is intellectual laziness, which is what you're doing with your defensiveness of an ambiguously supportable statement and antagonizing the other side by resorting to personal attacks and ad hominems rather than anything remotely like a civil rebuttal.

It's not that you're disagreeing with the Mary/Brookhaven theory, so much as there's so many reasons why I don't trust Ito's statements ANYWAY, so I don't see his twitter statements as being supportive one way or another. I wouldn't use him as support even if he agreed with me. Because I don't think he has any real reliable input on anything that doesn't have to do with monster design, and he hasn't had any fucking relevance for about ten years.
I haven't forgotten about that at all. But if you want a better example then just at Pete's Bowl-a-rama. There's no heavy symbolism regarding Mary there either. It's simply there to set up a bit of plot development for Eddie and Laura.
And he also had no reason to go there except Maria wanted to secure Laura. It had no monsters, no symbolism, no Otherworld shifts...it was hardly even an area.

As opposed to Brookhaven, the only place to experience an Otherworld shift besides the Hotel.
The fact that SH3 reuses the location and a lot of the same textures is, again, common sense so I thought it would be one of those things that would go without saying. But that's beside the point and not at all what I'm getting at. The point of that post that you're missing is that SH3 uses Brookhaven to establish some symbolism and plot flashbacks towards various aspects of Heather's life and her personality even though the hospital in question wasn't where she stayed. So the hospital is only there for a symbolic reason (that and to find Leonard as the plot requires).

Just like how SH2 uses Brookhaven to go reference some aspects of James and Mary's personalities even though neither of them having stayed at this hospital. For example, the focus on several of the patients having mental problems, the three patients with names starting with "J", Maria's will to find Laura in Brookhaven mirroring Mary's personality...and I guess you could say Maria's (somewhat) peaceful demeanor in room S3 of Brookhaven when she's lying on the bed is meant to be a contrast to Mary's suffering when she was confined to her bed when she was sick.

Do you get the picture now that I've elaborated a bit more?
I get it fine. I'm just saying that I don't find it entirely valid for the purposes you're trying to establish because SH3 used Brookhaven due to meta-fictional reasons. It was a situation where the plot shaped to fit a real-world circumstance. For all we know, the original plan would've used Alchemilla if they had the time and resources to remake the areas.
Good point indeed, but again you still don't know to what degree he was involved with the story. Even if it wasn't as much as we think it is, it still doesn't magically erase the fact he likely would have been privy to the story during the game's development. He was still in a position that would have opened the door for him to be knowledgeable about aspects of the games' story. If he says it isn't true and is sure of himself, that's good enough for me. Does it make him infallible? Of course not. But like I said, you don't even need his thoughts on the matter to recognize that this is just a mere theory with no concrete backing that solidifies it as being a true part of the story. With that in mind, you don't need a part of the staff to come forward and say "hey, that's not true."

Because then you'd have to give every single little fan theory would have to be given the time of day simply because the games aren't made to accommodate every single little thought the fandom is going to come up with.
As I've said before, no one here is saying that the theory is "absolute fact" or "as good as canon" or anything like that. Only that it's very solid, really well-supported, and lacks any sort of notable holes or logical flaws. It's an elegant and beautiful theory regardless of it's canonicity, just like "Alex Shepherd is Gay."
Oh, give me a break. This isn't really a good thing to bring to the table. I don't exactly have any notebooks or word documents that I read 24/7 or whenever I'm talking about Silent Hill, but I'm still able to recall a notable wealth of information about the series simply by memory alone despite the game being over a decade old.

Furthermore, given he was much more involved with the game than any of us were, you're much less likely to forget stuff like that. Does he remember every entire little detail about every single thing within the first three games? Of course not. No game developer ever does. It still doesn't render what they have to say any less relevant.
Developers have been wrong before, so I'm not taking them as gospel. For me, that goes for pretty much all developers if their statements are significantly removed from what they worked on, such as a decade time gap. IT doesn't matter what game or what developer. You can stop harping on this like it matters because I don't give a shit regardless of what the issue is. I've said as much, and have been saying as much, for years now before this even came up. I'm not harping on it to be "defensive".
To those who still maintain Mary stayed at Brookhaven in spite of Ito's statement to the contrary:

What would cause you to change your mind? If not even a definitive refutation from one of the game's designers is sufficient evidence to refute your theory, what could possibly be enough?
To get the simple answer out of the way: If the statement had come from something like the script writer, or the translator, or something. Not the guy who drew monsters.
I wasn't trying to "instigate shit", I was just saying I thought he had a legitimate point and thought saying it was "ass-backwards" was inappropriate.
I'm sorry if I snapped, Alex, but from my point of view, the way you wrote your last point didn't seem like it had any purpose except to rile things up.
This is speculation. If you remember correctly, she was running away from James and Maria at the time. Mary didn't stay at the Wood Side Apartments or Pete's Bowl-O-Rama. Also, I don't believe it's ever explicitly stated Laura went to Silent Hill to look for Mary. Her quote is:

"Me and Mary talked a lot about Silent Hill. She even showed me all her pictures. She really wanted to come back. That's why I'm here."

I personally believe Laura is in Silent Hill because she wants to visit the beautiful place Mary told her about, not that she legitimately believes Mary is there.
"Hey James. Let's get going, okay? We gotta find Mary."

Your entire paragraph is preposterous.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by Alex420 »

Remember the chain of events. She has to ask James "You're here to find Mary, aren't you, James?", then "She's here, isn't she?" as if she doesn't truly know herself. This is said in the Lakeview Hotel. I'm talking about her original motivation to go to Silent Hill, before she meets up with James in the hotel.

In any case, I'm talking about Laura specifically entering Brookhaven to look for Mary. Even if Laura entered Brookhaven to look for Mary, it doesn't necessarily mean Mary was there. My point is that the specific reason Laura entered Brookhaven is up to speculation.
AuraTwilight wrote: As opposed to Brookhaven, the only place to experience an Otherworld shift besides the Hotel.
Otherworld shifts don't always have to signify that the area is of great plot importance. They can happen randomly, anywhere for any reason.
AuraTwilight wrote: and lacks any sort of notable holes or logical flaws.
I disagree, but to each their own.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by fudgestix »

Lets make sure we keep things civil, everyone. If we're going to disagree on a theory, lets not make things personal.

Also can we cool it on the epic quoting marathon?
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by AuraTwilight »

Remember the chain of events. She has to ask James "You're here to find Mary, aren't you, James?", then "She's here, isn't she?" as if she doesn't truly know herself. This is said in the Lakeview Hotel. I'm talking about her original motivation to go to Silent Hill, before she meets up with James in the hotel.
Pete's Bowl-O-Rama, before she even enters Brookhaven. "So have you found that woman you're lookin' for? What's her name? Mary?"

Laura's been looking for Mary the whole time. It's why she hitchhiked with Eddie.
Otherworld shifts don't always have to signify that the area is of great plot importance. They can happen randomly, anywhere for any reason.
Cite me any examples at all, from the original three games? Because every Otherworld has occurred on the point of a significant psychological event. Even in SH3, when Heather is exploring areas not important to her, things trigger memories within her.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by Alex420 »

I forgot about that. Point taken, nice work.

Here are my examples (not that it really matters much):

- Harry in the alleyway in SH1
- Harry in the resort area in SH1
- Hilltop Center in SH3
- Lakeside Amusement Park in SH3
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by Augophthalmoses »

I get it fine. I'm just saying that I don't find it entirely valid for the purposes you're trying to establish because SH3 used Brookhaven due to meta-fictional reasons. It was a situation where the plot shaped to fit a real-world circumstance. For all we know, the original plan would've used Alchemilla if they had the time and resources to remake the areas.
And that's relevant why? It doesn't matter what the original plans were for SH3. Brookhaven is used regardless in the final product of SH3 and that's all that matters. It's just a poor attempt of you trying to move the goal posts.

Anyway, if it is in fact just a theory then there's no need for people being antsy about disregarding anything Ito says about the subject because said theory has never conclusively proven to be true in the first place. But as you've displayed within your posts, you're clearly not the type of person who is capable of remaining calm when god forbid somebody else challenges your logic and/or whatever ideas about the series you personally liked. So I'm just be taking your posts less seriously from on out, Aura.

Whoever doesn't like that reality of the situation can just fume and cling onto the theory for however long they wish.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by AuraTwilight »

- Harry in the alleyway in SH1
- Harry in the resort area in SH1
- Hilltop Center in SH3
- Lakeside Amusement Park in SH3
-The alleyway was a dream,
-What are you talking about, exactly?
-It's the final barrier before learning about Harry's horrible fate, and there's literally a huge obstruction to delay her,
-Preposterous, it's literally a place where Alessa's essence has been lingering for the past 17 years.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by Alex420 »

1) In the novelization, it wasn't a dream, making it possible that Cybil saved Harry from the monsters in the alleyway and brought him back to Cafe 5to2.
2) After the Kaufmann sidequest and before Harry meets Dahlia in the lighthouse, although this is where Dahlia fools Harry, so you can just drop this one.

Even if Otherworld shifts generally occur in places with significant plot significance, it can also be argued that it happens in Brookhaven Hospital not because Mary stayed there, but because James formally introduces himself to Laura and because Pyramid Head murders Maria, so the strength of the point is kind of lost in the process.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by The Adversary »

The r.p.t. doesn't kill Maria until long after the shift to the Otherworld has already occurred.

It's also kind of weak to say the shift occurs because James introduces himself to Laura because a) he actually doesn't introduce himself, and b) they've already encountered each other thrice at this point.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by Alex420 »

So now you're talking about the amount of time between the shift and the significant plot event?
I can beat Otherworld Brookhaven Hospital in less than 10 minutes. All you have to do is go to the basement to find Maria, grab the ring down there, then open the fridge with her to grab the other ring, and descend the "Lady of the Door". It's not that time-consuming.

Even then, this is something extremely trivial, so I think I'll just take my leave now.
I'm not really in the debating mood.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by alone in the town »

You can beat the entire game in about 45 minutes if you really try, but it's pretty obvious that, in universe, considerably more time passes.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by The Adversary »

>So now you're talking about the amount of time between the shift and the significant plot event?<
No, I'm talking about the actual event. Maria isn't attacked by the r.p.t. in the hallway until James has already been in the Otherworld. The shift occurs after James is locked in the examination room with the three hanging patients and is carted into the garden. He then has to traverse through the entire hospital, again, and make it to the basement's basement's basement's hallway where the r.p.t. appears.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by AuraTwilight »

1) In the novelization, it wasn't a dream, making it possible that Cybil saved Harry from the monsters in the alleyway and brought him back to Cafe 5to2.
The novelizations are stupid and contradict the games on several basic facts because they're alternate continuities.
2) After the Kaufmann sidequest and before Harry meets Dahlia in the lighthouse, although this is where Dahlia fools Harry, so you can just drop this one.
That was a special situation; it was an indication that Alessa was almost complete with her plan, and the "Foggy World" no longer had a purpose. The two realms effectively showed a divide in her consciousness that no longer existed.

@Brookhaven Otherworld Shift: Not only is everything Adversary said true, but the shift actually occurs with James seeing things through Mary's eyes as she's wheeled through a hospital, muttering for James desperately. James then wakes up in the Otherworld.

Regardless of what reasoning you use, the Otherworld is the doing of Mary's presence in James' mind, and more specifically, it seems to have literally been triggered by one of her own memories. If it's because Mary stayed in Brookhaven, or because her spirit lingers in Silent Hill, or what.

But it's a damn good arguing point for the Brookhaven theory in any case.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by KingCrimson »

AuraTwilight wrote:
1) In the novelization, it wasn't a dream, making it possible that Cybil saved Harry from the monsters in the alleyway and brought him back to Cafe 5to2.
The novelizations are stupid and contradict the games on several basic facts because they're alternate continuities.
2) After the Kaufmann sidequest and before Harry meets Dahlia in the lighthouse, although this is where Dahlia fools Harry, so you can just drop this one.
That was a special situation; it was an indication that Alessa was almost complete with her plan, and the "Foggy World" no longer had a purpose. The two realms effectively showed a divide in her consciousness that no longer existed.

@Brookhaven Otherworld Shift: Not only is everything Adversary said true, but the shift actually occurs with James seeing things through Mary's eyes as she's wheeled through a hospital, muttering for James desperately. James then wakes up in the Otherworld.
The view is actually that of a person being pushed on a stretcher, and given the end location in the outdoor area, I think we can be sure James is the one being carted out, not Mary.
Regardless of what reasoning you use, the Otherworld is the doing of Mary's presence in James' mind, and more specifically, it seems to have literally been triggered by one of her own memories. If it's because Mary stayed in Brookhaven, or because her spirit lingers in Silent Hill, or what.

But it's a damn good arguing point for the Brookhaven theory in any case.
The alternate hospital may have been triggered by James' conversation with Laura about the letter, after which she locks him in a room and he panics. The town used his feeling of betrayal and entrapment to manifest a mocking, bed-ridden caricature of Mary (the Flesh Lips boss monster), who strangles him with its feet while sliding along rails in the ceiling. Because the monster is representative of Mary, James' act of killing it triggers the possibility of realizing his responsibility for killing Mary in her bed.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by The Adversary »

>given the end location in the outdoor area, I think we can be sure James is the one being carted out, not Mary.<
Clearly James is being moved from examination room to garden. However, the point of this sequence is to reflect what Mary saw as she called out to James.

>The alternate hospital may have been triggered by James' conversation with Laura about the letter<
Then other letter-important areas would result in a shift to the Otherworld, and room 312 is not letter-significant—it's Mary-significant—yet, still, a shift occurs.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by KingCrimson »

The Adversary wrote:>given the end location in the outdoor area, I think we can be sure James is the one being carted out, not Mary.<
Clearly James is being moved from examination room to garden. However, the point of this sequence is to reflect what Mary saw as she called out to James.

>The alternate hospital may have been triggered by James' conversation with Laura about the letter<
Then other letter-important areas would result in a shift to the Otherworld, and room 312 is not letter-significant—it's Mary-significant—yet, still, a shift occurs.
One is included in the other. Anything relating to a letter from Mary will also relate to Mary herself. So, going by the principle that the idea of Mary is what pushes James' Silent Hill into the darkness, the hospital shift makes perfect sense alongside that of room 312, especially considering the Flesh Lips are the first monsters James encounters that directly represent Mary. The game's end boss is basically a Flesh Lips turned upside-down and without the blankets. There is plenty of Mary-significance surrounding the hospital shift without her having stayed there.
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Re: Reasons why Mary did not stay at Brookhaven **SPOILERS**

Post by AuraTwilight »

If Laura was the trigger of the Otherworld shift, why did it wait so long to occur? Even if the Shift was waiting for Laura to leave James' window experience, it still waited for like...what, five to eight minutes?
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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