Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Have you seen Harry's daughter anywhere? Short, dark hair?

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Droo
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Droo »

The question of how much control Alessa had over the monsters and Lisa is something we've been debating about on here for years.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Silent Fantasy »

I know. But that's the conclusion I come to still, and in the end there isn't much to go on anyway.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Tillerman »

I tend to think that Alessa didn't consciously create the otherworld, rather the town is manifesting it in reaction to her. It's implied that the town has a power of it's own, even in the first game... for example the "god" that is created at the end of the game is probably manifested by the town simply because the cult believes in it. (The guidebook sort of says something along those lines, IIRC)
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Silent Fantasy »

That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better. Explained it in alot less words too. :lol:
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Droo »

Alessa certainly seemed to exercise a certain amount of control in SH1 and Origins.

I thought the entire point of Nowhere and Lisa's complete breakdown was due to Alessa's loss of control over the Otherworld.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Silent Fantasy »

Those seem like pretty obvious cases of when she's in control, but she doesn't come off as the one that created and/ or controls most of what is in SH1 consciously. That's not to say she was another bystander, because she does have her powers and i'm sure she was trying to control it.
Also, is it ever explicitly said that Lisa's breakdown was due to Alessa's loss of control? I only remember reading that as a theory and that was a few years ago, so my memory is fuzzy on that one.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Tillerman »

Droo wrote:Alessa certainly seemed to exercise a certain amount of control in SH1 and Origins.

I thought the entire point of Nowhere and Lisa's complete breakdown was due to Alessa's loss of control over the Otherworld.
The thing about Nowhere... I can't find anyplace in the official materials (guidebook/interviews) where this is stated, or even hinted at. It does say that the monsters are born from Alessa's nightmares, and that the otherworld's shifts back and forth between fog and dark world represent dream cycles. To me, this would seem to indicate that Alessa isn't consciously creating the otherworld or manipulating it.

As for the point of Nowhere, I'm not sure, but perhaps it's like that because you are afterall sort of in Alessa's dream (or a world manifested by her dreams, or something.) The wikia says that Nowhere is at the "center" of the otherworld, and is like that because you are closer to Alessa. That sounds as good a theory as any.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Droo »

My understanding always was that the Flauros fucked up Alessa enough that her constructed reality began to collapse in on itself.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Brispir »

My understanding is that Alessa had control of the otherworld, and was able to manipulate things there. It was after Alessa was stricken with the Flauros that she lost control of the otherworld, which is what nowhere is to begin with... just a mishmash of pieces of the otherworld that Alessa used to have control over. She's losing control so all the bits and pieces get thrown around.
Also, we only see Lisa in the otherworld, and she's obviously a reconstruction and not the real Lisa (who we meet in Origins) and she breaks down after Alessa loses control.

As for the sewers mentioned earlier, I want to add this: A real life sewer is not usually built for people to be able to walk through (yes, the Ninja Turtles lied to us all). Alessa, or whoever constructed the foggy realm, recreated it, but made it big enough for people to walk through. A town the size of Silent Hill would definitely not have made any subterranean passages like that one for a sewer.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Lighthouse »

Have you ever heard of an "absurdly spacious sewer"? Videogames specifically are big on designing highly exaggerative sewers for small areas. Something tells me the intention of the developers wasn't that the sewers were recreated. I've haven't played the sequels so my knowledge is limited however...
Only played Silent Hill 1 so far,Kaufmann is a badass...can't say the same for his sidequest...
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Tillerman »

On the Flauros, the guidebook says: "A charm that appears in the first game. It has the ability to break the continuity of the boundary that surrounds Alessa." I'm not exactly sure how to parse that, but if the "boundry that surrounds Alessa" is the town, then perhaps breaking it up is what results in Nowhere. Who knows.
Brispir wrote:My understanding is that Alessa had control of the otherworld, and was able to manipulate things there.
That's not explicitly stated anywhere, as far as I know. The guidebook tends to use dream terminology to describe the otherworld, such as referring to the creatures as "nightmares." It also it describes the changes from fog world to dark world as follows: "These changes occur because there is a cycle in the world of Alessa's nightmares which envelops the town. In the same way that a person normally repeats REM sleep and non-REM sleep in regular cycles while he or she is sleeping." This tends to make me think that Alessa didn't have conscious control over the manifestations. After all, you don't control your REM cycles, and Alessa probably isn't willfully inserting her own nightmares.

You also have to keep in mind Alessa's goal, which is to complete the crest of annihilation in order to erase Silent Hill and everyone in it, including herself. If she had control over the otherworld, you'd think she could do this easily, but it seems to take her some time.

And of course, the guidebook clearly states that this is all coming from the town: "In the town of Silent Hill, a power exists that gives discernable form to peoples' innermost thoughts. As for the otherworld that appears in the series, the town is not merely showing the characters their nightmares, but actually manifesting elements of their unconscious minds." Based on that description, it's pretty clear that the town is ultimately responsible for the manifestations, and it doesn't sound like Alessa has any control over that. It sounds like the town is reacting to her.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Silent Fantasy »

The examples you brought up from the guide are what led me to believe Alessa doesn't have full control, though it sedms i'm due for another reading because i'm starting to wonder if she had any control whatsoever. The most I have read from that guide is the transition description a few years back. Or, that's what I remember reading.
Anyway, I have to agree with you, obviously.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Brispir »

Tillerman: First of all, what guidebook are you referring to? The strategy guide?
Also, almost NOTHING in Silent Hill 1 is "explicitly stated anywhere" which is why I loved the first two games best since it made you put the pieces together yourself. It kinda bothers me that later Silent Hill games wrap up nicely so you know what happens when the game ends. I loved the mystery of "What just happened?" after beating SH1 and 2. I miss that.
As for the creatures being nightmares, and for the otherworld being a nightmare, that actually makes a lot of sense if you take the first SH game in its original context (that is, without sequels). In the original, there is one ending (which I considered the real ending until SH3 came along) where you just see Harry in his jeep dead.... as if he imagined everything just before he died and the whole game was all in his head (kinda like in Jacob's Ladder which was an inspiration for the game). When it was JUST Silent Hill 1 (no sequels) I imagined Harry may have had a daughter named Cheryl and he wanted to tell her she was adopted but never did and the demon referred to was more like a personal demon rather than a real demon. Now, SH3 and Origins does away with this, but I don't think Silent Hill 1 was originally created with a sequel in mind.

Also...
[quote]Have you ever heard of an "absurdly spacious sewer"?[quote]
I made a Ninja Turtles reference didn't I? :P
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Droo »

Brispir wrote:Tillerman: First of all, what guidebook are you referring to? The strategy guide?
Also, almost NOTHING in Silent Hill 1 is "explicitly stated anywhere" which is why I loved the first two games best since it made you put the pieces together yourself. It kinda bothers me that later Silent Hill games wrap up nicely so you know what happens when the game ends. I loved the mystery of "What just happened?" after beating SH1 and 2. I miss that.
Clearly you've never heard of the Book of Lost Memories.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Lighthouse »

Brispir wrote:I made a Ninja Turtles reference didn't I?
I thought when you said "Ninja turtles lied to us" you were emphasizing how sewers don't work that way and using it as proof for your "sewers were recreated" bit. I apologize if this wasn't the case.
Only played Silent Hill 1 so far,Kaufmann is a badass...can't say the same for his sidequest...
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Silent Fantasy »

Brispir wrote:Tillerman: First of all, what guidebook are you referring to? The strategy guide?
Also, almost NOTHING in Silent Hill 1 is "explicitly stated anywhere" which is why I loved the first two games best since it made you put the pieces together yourself.
Plenty of SH1 is either explicitly stated or already figured out by many here. If you don't know about it, you should look up the book Droo mentioned.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by AuraTwilight »

On the Flauros, the guidebook says: "A charm that appears in the first game. It has the ability to break the continuity of the boundary that surrounds Alessa." I'm not exactly sure how to parse that, but if the "boundry that surrounds Alessa" is the town, then perhaps breaking it up is what results in Nowhere. Who knows.
Uh, it's probably referring to the forcefield Harry smacked his face into.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Tillerman »

Brispir wrote:Tillerman: First of all, what guidebook are you referring to? The strategy guide?
Sorry, I just assumed everyone here knew about it. It's the Ushinawareta Kioku (Book of Lost Memories) an official guide to explaining some of the mysteries of Silent Hill written by the developers. It doesn't spell everything out, but it does answer many questions. You can read the translated version here: http://silenthillchronicle.net/
AuraTwilight wrote:Uh, it's probably referring to the forcefield Harry smacked his face into.
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Brispir »

Tillerman wrote: Sorry, I just assumed everyone here knew about it. It's the Ushinawareta Kioku (Book of Lost Memories) an official guide to explaining some of the mysteries of Silent Hill written by the developers. It doesn't spell everything out, but it does answer many questions. You can read the translated version here: http://silenthillchronicle.net
I heard of it, but never did get to read it. I'll give it a look... although personally I prefer when SH1 was open to interpretation and people could debate what really happened all the time.

Lighthouse wrote:
Brispir wrote:I made a Ninja Turtles reference didn't I?
I thought when you said "Ninja turtles lied to us" you were emphasizing how sewers don't work that way and using it as proof for your "sewers were recreated" bit. I apologize if this wasn't the case.
Uh, to be honest, my memory is horrible so I don't even remember what my intentions were. To be honest, I was saying IRL, sewers are not like that, but I know they exist in fiction all the time (Ninja Turtles are just the best example I can think of)
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Re: Alessa and the Jewelry shop?

Post by Tillerman »

Brispir wrote:I heard of it, but never did get to read it. I'll give it a look... although personally I prefer when SH1 was open to interpretation and people could debate what really happened all the time.
Yeah, I understand what you mean. Some people take the view that the author does a disservice when they come out and dispel all the mysteries, and explains exactly what they meant. That kills the sense of mystery that a work once had. But on the other hand, there are lots of details in Silent Hill's story that seemed inexplicable, and it's very interesting to hear the real backstory that explains them.

Personally I think it's okay to take an alternative view on Silent Hill, even if it diverges from official sources, as long as you make an effort to be aware of what the official sources say.
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