"GOOD": The only ending that can possibly be true.

[Burning Man]

Points 7, 8, 10, 11 are considered but neglected because of these passages from Lost Memories:

IMAGE: the fan in the passageway leading to the underground chapel
Even the giant ventilation fans that appear since the first game can be seen
as overlapping with this "cycle."

SECTION THREE: Even the development of the story is inevitably similar?

The story of the first game begins with a nightmare, passes through an
amusement park and concludes in "nowhere." The third game also starts from
a nightmare and finally comes to an end in a church. One should reach an
understanding if one imagines that even the story development which is
similar to a surprising degree is a phenomenon that "loops."

These passages effectively implies that the time loop phenomena that connects to Silent Hill 3 also connects to Silent Hill. The themes they share regarding loops cannot be ignored.

Valtiel is considered the catalyst in this phenomena, and it's noteworthy that ol' cauliflower head never makes an appearance in Silent Hill 1.

Lost Memories makes a point to state that Valtiel looks different to different people. "Ol' cauliflower head" is not going to make an appearance anyway.

But making an appearance is not necessary. The god's presence is still around; there's no reason to believe that her demigods and angels are not present at all.

Points 7, 8, 10, 11 are based on assumptions that time loops are illogical, which I've refuted with my point 4. Points 7, 8, 10, 11 are not four separate points, actually. You could have just said made that into one point under my point 6, where Harry doesn't die once (hence no time loop). Your points are all valid sub-points, I'll give you that.

10. Back on the time loop topic, I repeat what I mentioned earlier: If Harry can take with him knowledge of the Aglaophotis, why would he forget so many other things that are, inarguably, much more important to remember? It's too selective, too convenient, and therefore, too unlikely.

I don't know; give me an example of what's "so many other things that are, inarguably, much more important to remember." He succeeded in saving "Cheryl" in GOOD - the only thing that's important to remember then would be that he couldn't save Cybil...

But, again, this is all under the assumption that time loops are illogical. It actually isn't. And, it's a helpful tool.

Harrys_girl makes a good point in suggesting that Harry has no reason to pick up the Aglaophotis from the director's office. This is a valid point. He's not going to save some just because it looked like it would go great with his sandwich. If I were to argue for GOOD ending, I would say that Harry realized its importance then, and went to retrieve some for Heather in the Next Fear. Then, the rarity of the substance would no longer be a problem, and would go nothing against Lost Memories.

9. There is no strict evidence of Cybil's fate in other games, but her total absence, even in Harry's many notes and references, does not seem to suggest that she survived.

The thing is, Lost Memories does make mention of this, too. But even in spite of that, Owaku's comment is still present within context that it's up to players' imagination as to what happened to Cybil afterwards.

If point 9 was between you and I, your point would have been solid. But, you realize it's your word against Owaku's, really. I value your insight into the series, but a scenario writer's statements still carry more credibility.

[alone in the town]

Points 7, 8, 10, 11 are considered but neglected because of these passages from Lost Memories:

IMAGE: the fan in the passageway leading to the underground chapel
Even the giant ventilation fans that appear since the first game can be seen
as overlapping with this "cycle."

SECTION THREE: Even the development of the story is inevitably similar?

The story of the first game begins with a nightmare, passes through an
amusement park and concludes in "nowhere." The third game also starts from
a nightmare and finally comes to an end in a church. One should reach an
understanding if one imagines that even the story development which is
similar to a surprising degree is a phenomenon that "loops."

These passages effectively implies that the time loop phenomena that connects to Silent Hill 3 also connects to Silent Hill. The themes they share regarding loops cannot be ignored.

I'm sorry, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't imply any such thing. The fact that Heather experiences some of the same phenomena as Harry indicates that her experience may be in some ways a repeat of what her father experienced, which would constitute a time loop (events repeating themselves with differences based upon perspective). It does not imply, at all, that Harry's own experience repeated itself innumerable times before finally reaching an endpoint. For that matter, it does not even imply that Heather's experience MUST repeat itself unless she dies before events conclude. Heather and Harry both can survive their scenarios without ever going through a cycle of death and rebirth, and all evidence points to said cycle applying only to Heather, whose very existence as Mother of God, Daughter of God gives this concept appropriate metaphorical weight. Harry is just a victim of random, cruel circumstance, not at all integral to the process of God's birth except in a strictly limited sense. Heather is entirely irreplaceable in this. Plus, Heather's time loop has a clear point of severance, because she is, eventually, no longer the Vessel of God and, therefore, no longer under Valtiel's protective wing. Her time loop is defined very clearly. No such definition exists anywhere within Silent Hill 1, and therefore there is no reason to believe one exists within that game.

It further suggests that Heather's experience of possibly infinite causality is tied directly to the Halo of the Sun, its innate symbology of rebirth and cyclical time, and, of course, its function as a save point. If this is the case, then Harry clearly does not experience recurring causality, because he obviously did not have access to this particular brand of mysticism, 'saving' as he did on mundane notepads.

Any application exclusively to Harry's experience is strictly invention, as far as this particular passage in Lost Memories is concerned.

Valtiel is considered the catalyst in this phenomena, and it's noteworthy that ol' cauliflower head never makes an appearance in Silent Hill 1.

Lost Memories makes a point to state that Valtiel looks different to different people. "Ol' cauliflower head" is not going to make an appearance anyway.

But making an appearance is not necessary. The god's presence is still around; there's no reason to believe that her demigods and angels are not present at all.

Fallacy. Valtiel's job is to ensure that the Vessel of God remains intact. Considering what Alessa is attempting to do, we have no idea if Valtiel has any ability to control events. If he did, why would Dahlia bother wasting time with Harry and the Flauros? Could not Valtiel effectively reconstitute Alessa if she succeeded in her goals, or somehow prevent her from achieving them at all?

As for other members of the Order's pantheon, we know so little about their identities and roles that any assumptions on their involvement with Silent Hill 1 is entirely speculative. This even applies to Valtiel, as he is never seen or referred to within Silent Hill 1, even in retrospect.

Points 7, 8, 10, 11 are based on assumptions that time loops are illogical, which I've refuted with my point 4. Points 7, 8, 10, 11 are not four separate points, actually. You could have just said made that into one point under my point 6, where Harry doesn't die once (hence no time loop). Your points are all valid sub-points, I'll give you that.

Patently untrue. In fact, in each item I pointedly allowed for the possibility of recursive causality. There are certain aspects that just don't fit. Plus, the idea that time loops apply to any game but Silent Hill 3 at this point remains entirely speculative, so I can assume they are illogical in every other context and my points would be no less valid for it.

I don't know; give me an example of what's "so many other things that are, inarguably, much more important to remember." He succeeded in saving "Cheryl" in GOOD - the only thing that's important to remember then would be that he couldn't save Cybil...

I already have. The matter of Cybil's survival is terrifically minor compared to, I don't know, everything else going on? Why would he not remember Dahlia's duplicity, for one major example? The entire series of events would dramatically alter if he remembered that everything she says is a lie, and the fate of the entire world is potentially at risk if he listens to her. Cybil's survival, on the other hand, does not impact the end result one bit for anyone but Cybil.

Harrys_girl makes a good point in suggesting that Harry has no reason to pick up the Aglaophotis from the director's office. This is a valid point. He's not going to save some just because it looked like it would go great with his sandwich. If I were to argue for GOOD ending, I would say that Harry realized its importance then, and went to retrieve some for Heather in the Next Fear. Then, the rarity of the substance would no longer be a problem, and would go nothing against Lost Memories.

He collects it because he assumes it is important. He notes that it appears to be broken deliberately. This is, I hasten to note, exponentially more incentive than Harry ever gets to actually use it on anything.

If point 9 was between you and I, your point would have been solid. But, you realize it's your word against Owaku's, really. I value your insight into the series, but a scenario writer's statements still carry more credibility.

Because you continue to (incorrectly) assume that his statement must contradict the book's earlier assertion of GOOD being the correct ending. Nothing I say in any way contradicts what he has said, unless you add context that simply isn't there.

[GrievousGarland]

ugh... so much text. It's all so confusing.

*beats head against wall*

All I know is that I think the good ending is canon and that Harry poured the red liquid into the locket without any prior tampering. That's all I know...

[alone in the town]

This is starting to get kind of epic, isn't it?

I hope Burning Man doesn't break out some large response five minutes before I go to work tonight. It'll bug the shit out of me if I see it and I have to wait ten hours to respond.

[GrievousGarland]

This is starting to get kind of epic, isn't it?

I hope Burning Man doesn't break out some large response five minutes before I go to work tonight. It'll bug the shit out of me if I see it and I have to wait ten hours to respond.

Oh I know the feeling. I don't like leaving, letting people think they're right. -_-

[Burning Man]

Because you continue to (incorrectly) assume that his statement must contradict the book's earlier assertion of GOOD being the correct ending. Nothing I say in any way contradicts what he has said, unless you add context that simply isn't there.

I got it right. It is you who is ignoring context because it's suddenly inconvenient for you. The section was talking about GOOD+, and Owaku's comment was made within context to that ending. You are arguing that GOOD is the true ending. That would make Owaku's statement irrelevant.

GOOD does not give players a chance to use their imagination because it shows exactly what Cybil's fate is.

I mean, you can bring in your Silent Hill 4 -The Room- comparison, but honestly...

He collects it because he assumes it is important.

Or maybe he knows of its importance from a previous playthrough. It's unlikely someone looking for their daughter would stop at shattered contents - red, looking like someone's blood - and pick them up just randomly because he "assumes it's important."

The entire series of events would dramatically alter if he remembered that everything she says is a lie, and the fate of the entire world is potentially at risk if he listens to her.

If he doesn't listen to her, he'll fail. The game is constructed in a way that not listening to her will block your progress.

Even if Harry remembers that what she says is a lie, he'd be smart to pretend that he didn't know about it. If he altered his course dramatically, he might fail in saving Cheryl, even a version of her.

Cybil's survival, on the other hand, does not impact the end result one bit for anyone but Cybil.

Humans usually feel remorse for killing someone. If they could undo it somehow, I'm sure they'll try.

While saving Cybil may not impact the end result that Heather needs to be saved, it does allow Harry to be more sane about the situation. He even talks about how the Mason couple found Cheryl with Cybil. Cybil is Harry's emotional ally.

Her time loop is defined very clearly. No such definition exists anywhere within Silent Hill 1, and therefore there is no reason to believe one exists within that game.

Harry is part of Alessa's nightmare. Does the cycle apply to Heather only, or does it also apply to Alessa as well? And, if it did apply to Alessa, then her nightmare is affected along with Harry who is a part of that nightmare.

If he did, why would Dahlia bother wasting time with Harry and the Flauros? Could not Valtiel effectively reconstitute Alessa if she succeeded in her goals, or somehow prevent her from achieving them at all?

Because Dahlia doesn't know for sure what effects that Seal of Metatron really has in conjunction to Alessa's own powers. She does not know if Valtiel would still be able to make a difference. Dahlia won't take any chances, so Flauros is her backup plan.

Silent Hill Koushiki Guidebook Kanzenban for more information.

I hope Burning Man doesn't break out some large response five minutes before I go to work tonight. It'll bug the shit out of me if I see it and I have to wait ten hours to respond.

No love is lost there.

[AuraTwilight]

I got it right. It is you who is ignoring context because it's suddenly inconvenient for you. The section was talking about GOOD+, and Owaku's comment was made within context to that ending. You are arguing that GOOD is the true ending. That would make Owaku's statement irrelevant.

GOOD does not give players a chance to use their imagination because it shows exactly what Cybil's fate is.

I mean, you can bring in your Silent Hill 4 -The Room- comparison, but honestly...

Since Word of God is being invoked a lot in this thread, lemme bring up an interesting trope or two to shake things up.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... pFlopOfGod

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShrugOfGod

Or maybe he knows of its importance from a previous playthrough. It's unlikely someone looking for their daughter would stop at shattered contents - red, looking like someone's blood - and pick them up just randomly because he "assumes it's important."

This brings up the question of why he expresses curiosity and surprise at the same stimuli and doesn't try and change things for the better, like shooting Dahlia on sight or telling Cybil to get the fuck away from the Amusement Park.

Harry is part of Alessa's nightmare. Does the cycle apply to Heather only, or does it also apply to Alessa as well? And, if it did apply to Alessa, then her nightmare is affected along with Harry who is a part of that nightmare.

Then logically, Harry should only get rebooted when Alessa dies, and Alessa should be the only one retaining memory.

[alone in the town]

I got it right. It is you who is ignoring context because it's suddenly inconvenient for you. The section was talking about GOOD+, and Owaku's comment was made within context to that ending. You are arguing that GOOD is the true ending. That would make Owaku's statement irrelevant.

GOOD does not give players a chance to use their imagination because it shows exactly what Cybil's fate is.

I mean, you can bring in your Silent Hill 4 -The Room- comparison, but honestly...

. . . but honestly, it doesn't fit your parameters. Even though it's entirely plausible and all that.

And, considering the cautionary tone that section uses when referring to the GOOD+ ending, I think my take on the quote is simply par for the course.

Or maybe he knows of its importance from a previous playthrough. It's unlikely someone looking for their daughter would stop at shattered contents - red, looking like someone's blood - and pick them up just randomly because he "assumes it's important."

Harry never picks up items that lack immediate purpose?

Honestly?

You have played Silent Hill games before, haven't you?

If he doesn't listen to her, he'll fail. The game is constructed in a way that not listening to her will block your progress.

If he remembers what she says, there's no reason for him to even make contact with her a second time, except perhaps to obtain the Flauros. Hell, considering what happens when he finally does catch up to her, he can expedite the entire process by waiting for Alessa to appear in any of the locations he already knows she will appear.

Even if Harry remembers that what she says is a lie, he'd be smart to pretend that he didn't know about it. If he altered his course dramatically, he might fail in saving Cheryl, even a version of her.

If he saves a version of her and it makes no difference thanks to this time loop invalidating everything he did, why would he care?

Humans usually feel remorse for killing someone. If they could undo it somehow, I'm sure they'll try.

Maybe so. But, I doubt his remorse over killing a stranger is so overwhelming that, when his whole existence resets, that's the only memory he brings with him. You'd think the pertinent information about his daughter might take precedence here. Or the little matter of averting Armageddon.

While saving Cybil may not impact the end result that Heather needs to be saved, it does allow Harry to be more sane about the situation. He even talks about how the Mason couple found Cheryl with Cybil. Cybil is Harry's emotional ally.

This revelation is touching, but it is hardly a catalyst in future events.

Harry is part of Alessa's nightmare. Does the cycle apply to Heather only, or does it also apply to Alessa as well? And, if it did apply to Alessa, then her nightmare is affected along with Harry who is a part of that nightmare.

So why is it that not one of the participants within this nightmare, Alessa included, ever exhibit evidence that they remember anything from prior recursions? You can play the game three hundred times. Alessa's still going to get zapped by the Flauros at the same point, without variation. If anyone should retain knowledge, it's her.

And yet, the only possible example of retained knowledge involves saving the least significant character in the entire chain of events. And, Aura makes a great point: if Harry knows that he can save Cybil with Aglaophotis, he must also remember why it's necessary. Why doesn't he prevent Cybil from getting herself parasitzed in the first place?

Because Dahlia doesn't know for sure what effects that Seal of Metatron really has in conjunction to Alessa's own powers. She does not know if Valtiel would still be able to make a difference. Dahlia won't take any chances, so Flauros is her backup plan.

But the time loops! She should remember eventually!

And, I still haven't had an answer to this question: If Silent Hill 1 really is recursive causality, what makes it stop? It has to stop at some point, else we would not have Silent Hill 3.

Also, what exactly is the point of a time loop in this game, anyway? Who sets it in motion? Who even benefits from it? Harry eventually saves the day and kills the God. Why would it start over? And since God dies every time, what makes one instance different from all others and severs the loop?

No love is lost there.

Either way, I'm grateful.

[The Adversary]

>to assume a time loop in Silent Hill 1 may be to assume something that is entirely incorrect.
"The game ends when you turn off your Playstation." I believe Hiroyuki Owaku said that, specifically in regards to Silent Hill. To suggest a time loop is "entirely incorrect" would be to, again, disregard his statements entirely.

[alone in the town]

Given the countless impossible scenarios this statement engenders, I can't imagine that this statement is meant to be taken as a literal (or serious) indicator of Silent Hill 1's ultimate outcome.

If it is, it effectively renders the entire game irrelevant in terms of events, and any detailed discussion of this game is a waste of time.

[The Adversary]

And the countless possible scenarios enabled? including an explanation to your time loop conundrum?

[alone in the town]

Well, then it degenerates into exactly the kind of crap for which we've ridiculed others. Now, we really can't prove that Mary isn't a robot who came to earth to spread poison candy canes in an effort to exterminate Ewoks.

Don't do this to me.

[GrievousGarland]

Well, then it degenerates into exactly the kind of crap for which we've ridiculed others. Now, we really can't prove that Mary isn't a robot who came to earth to spread poison candy canes in an effort to exterminate Ewoks.

Don't do this to me.

I was just going to post my theory on that. -_-
*kicks can* now I'm not going to because you took the edge off of it.

[Krysta]

But the time loops! She should remember eventually!

And, I still haven't had an answer to this question: If Silent Hill 1 really is recursive causality, what makes it stop? It has to stop at some point, else we would not have Silent Hill 3.

Also, what exactly is the point of a time loop in this game, anyway? Who sets it in motion? Who even benefits from it? Harry eventually saves the day and kills the God. Why would it start over? And since God dies every time, what makes one instance different from all others and severs the loop?

I treat time loop thing as a juicy peace of BS. There are enough events in game that are totally against this 'theory', as events could never, theoreticly, progress over and over again with same end results, as it simply does each new 'next fear' eg: Alessa wouldn't get fooled by Dahlia tricks, Kaufmann wouldn't step into someshit at burger shot knowing his life would be in jeopardy, Cybill wouldn't fo'sure got KO'd from behind so easily given her 'cop nature' etc. Unless you are trying to find pointless answer, why Harry finds red thing spilled on ground important, which I believe leads further to nonsensical speculations. Harry has got plenty of time after SH1 events to study everything related to The Order and it's beliefs. However, I admit it does not come easy but I believe Harry might took some Aglaphotis with him or he was able to cook some up at home, but it's less likely given the rarity of the herb. Anyway Heather is walking proof of that either deed was done.

Back to time loops, even so you would have to be consequent and assume all other characters would have this retaining knowledge of past events so they could act more reasonably next time, especially Alessa, Harry is lowest tier really in hearachy of SH1 character importance. And simpy each 'new fear' nothing shows any promise, same shit happens same wrong choices so this proves that it took just one shoot for game events to complete the day, if so it would mean that SH1 is endlessly taking place in specific dimension, even long after events of SH3. Which is, even in SH universe, impossible, right?

[DamienPales]

The statement where Owaku states that Cybil's fate is up to the players' imagination isn't exactly in a prominent place in the guidebook, if we're going to use that as biblical law. The statement is in one of those little boxes where Owaku seems to put out-of-the-way information that has no real impact on the games themselves, you know, like the other box where he jokingly states that the UFO endings are the canon endings (OMG INSERT SMILIE SO U KNOW IM JOKNIG). I'm not saying that makes it more or less credible, but I can find plenty of instances where Owaku is being pretty facetious just for the sake of being facetious.

He's an impish little man, that Owaku.

[Krysta]

indeed, Owaku's padawans shuld consider UFO endings ultimate canon afterall he said it no one else. Thankfully all is left to my imagination, which one I believe works more reasonable concerning the franchise, than Owaku's

[Video Gamer]

Finally, you all see the light! The UFO ending is the only true one!

But yeah, timeloop = bullshit. I'm still with Alone on this one.

[DamienPales]

And just to add my opinion on this time-loop thing, if Harry is indeed caught in one until he makes the "right" decision, how do you account for the discrepancy that Harry would ostensibly put up with Dahlia's little game every single time and still retain knowledge of the aglaophotis? If he gets to retain past knowledge, then wouldn't he just shoot Dahlia in the vagina the moment he sees her lying face?

The whole plot would be vastly different if Harry got to redo everything after the first time.

[The Adversary]

Perhaps you should read the thread before writing there's no explanation for his actions.

In doing so, one might also realize Hiroyuki Owaku is, in fact, joking about the UFO ending.

[DamienPales]

I thought my statement was pretty clear that I was well aware he was joking about the UFO ending. I only postulated that he could just as easily be joking about the whole "leaving Cybil's fate up to the player's imagination" business as well.

And it's not like he actually admitted that his UFO ending comment was a joke either. You can't gauge sarcasm in writing unless there's some kind of obvious sign that it's the case. So it's not a fact that he was joking, just a fair assumption, otherwise I could assume that the entirety of Lost Memories is a joke.

Which it is, by the way.