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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jan 2005
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DamienPales wrote:
I always thought Kaufmann was the one who apprehended Lisa, probably forced to do so by Dahlia for threatening to escape and expose The Order. Lisa and Kaufmann were having an argument, a pretty violent one judging by the way Lisa violently shoved Kaufmann away, so why would he just let her go?


"Left that hospital, won't work there anymore."
Lisa wrote that in her diary. She wanted to quit and he wasn't going to let her, becuase not only is she one of his favorite customers but she knows that Alessa is not dead, but hidden away in the hopsital's basement. And probably knows that Kaufmann lied/doctored offical documents.


I never said she got away... another part of my therory is that Kaufman actually killed her, Alessa didn't know, thus she was brought into the Otherworld. That could also explain the bleeding from the head if Kaufman beat her over the head. But eventaully, Lisa began to remember the fight w/ Kaufmann and upon that realization, Alessa couldn't even save her from "dying" in the Otherworld.

But that is not supported, in-game or not.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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>"Doctors and nurses were real people,"
Lisa: "Why I'm still alive even though everyone else is dead."

Lisa is talking about the puppets obviously as she's never left the hospital to check for anyone else outside. "Everyone else is dead" means that they were alive before.

>"...pulled in to the otherworld, and then possessed by parasites"
The parasites are only found in the otherworld and not the foggy one. Thus, in order for the staff and the parasites to meet, it makes sense for the staff to have shifted into the otherworld.

>"Lisa is a living dead".
Lisa's behavior up to the focal point is everything that a normal human would portray, but the end, she says that she was the "same as them" meaning that she was dead all along.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 23 Nov 2007
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Last seen at: Silent Hill
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I said, "Even if..." I don't know where the parasite might have latched on to her, or if it's even there anymore.


Well, the answer is no. There is simply no proof, no spoken in-game dialouge that leads us to believe that Lisa had a parasite.

Quote:
Cybil has a parasite on her back, which she is bleeding from. I did not say Lisa's parasite was on her back.


You did theorize about it, however. You said that that Lisa's sweater and long straight hair would cover the parasite.

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Cybil only bleed from her mouth after Harry kills her? I've seen people bleed violently from the mouth when they're beaten badly or shot to death.


That was a mistake on my part, I forgot that Cybil only has red eyes before Harry kills her.

Quote:
It certainly had an effect on when Lisa decided to start bleeding.


That's the point I've been trying to make to you for the past 2 pages.

Quote:
You believe that Kaufmann killed Lisa, but there is absolutely no indication to support your theory.


The fact that he is her drug supply is simple enough of a reason. Maybe she refused to tend to Alessa any longer since it took a toll on her own mental state. Kaufmann gets angry, and kills Lisa. Or maybe she threatens to tell people about their relationship with each other. Same thing. He gets angry, kills Lisa.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Chloe Smith wrote:
Well, the answer is no. There is simply no proof, no spoken in-game dialouge that leads us to believe that Lisa had a parasite.

Again, the other staff died due to the parasites. We assume the same for Lisa unless proven otherwise.

This "otherwise" is something you need to prove instead of flat-out saying, "no". What is there in the game that suggests that she died by some other means?

Quote:
You did theorize about it, however.

My main purpose in bringing that up was to make a point in saying that a parasite wouldn't be visible on Lisa either way. Sorry to have confused you.

Quote:
That's the point I've been trying to make to you for the past 2 pages.

You misunderstand me. Something caused the bleeding. Realizing that she is dead is not the direct cause of her bleeding. She is bleeding for another reason.

In all these years, you're the first one that ever said that where Lisa bleeds does not matter. At least, people have suggested that perhaps Kaufmann blew her brains out.

I, on the other hand, theorized that perhaps the parasite latched onto her head.

Quote:
The fact that he is her drug supply is simple enough of a reason.

I didn't say the possibility wasn't there. I said there was no indication: no proof, no spoken in-game dialogue, no file, no nothing that Kaufmann killed her.

Lisa dying by a parasite is legitimate reasoning because all the other staff died that way, and she is the only other resident of otherworld hospital besides the puppets. While Lisa's behavior is exceptional, that simply means that there's something different about character. We can theorize why, but her different behavior does not imply that she died some other way, or that she was killed by Kaufmann even.

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Moderator
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 11988
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Yes, I changed my mind. I am capable of being persuaded by arguments against my position. Some of the rest of you should try it.

Lisa is manifested as a monster in SH1 because that's all that Silent Hill manifestations can be. Alessa's subconscience created a Lisa because she really wanted her there. Alessa's powers allowed her to maintain this creature as the real Lisa for a time until the Flauros fucked her all up, and then Lisa went berserk.

I find Harrys_Girl's explanation to be the most satisfactory and compelling of the theories proffered in this thread. It makes perfect sense and explains why Lisa would be tormented in the Otherworld.

However, I think that it is the Lisa monster from SH1 that is tormented forever. The real Lisa is dead and gone, and has been for some time.

As for the belief that Kaufmann killed Lisa, I think it has always come from the Intro scenes of Lisa fighting with Kaufmann, quite vehemently, in the lobby of the hospital. There has to be a reason we were shown that.

Arsonist: Tommy is taking the ABSENSE of the word "manifestation" in Lost Memories to be indicative of their real nature. It is not a positive statement that convinces him, it's a negative absense of a word. I think it's just sloppy wording and Tommy is being too much of a literalist, which he tends to be (unless it doesn't support one of his ideas, of course).

I would like to finally add that I think people are reading waaaaay too much into Lisa's bleeding and what it means about how she died. The bleeding has nothing to do with how the real Lisa died. It's that the Lisa construct is falling apart. Nothing more.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Droo wrote:
Yes, I changed my mind.

I was talking about Chloe. You have been stubborn as a mule. Chloe and I disagree, but she's being open-minded at least.

Quote:
Lisa is manifested as a monster in SH1 because that's all that Silent Hill manifestations can be.

Statements are cheap; it doesn't take any brains to make one.

Again, Cybil. But you already said she was an exception. Which only proves that that's not "all that Silent Hill manifestations can be." Normal people can be turned into monsters given the circumstance, and we already see one.

Quote:
As for the belief that Kaufmann killed Lisa, I think it has always come from the Intro scenes of Lisa fighting with Kaufmann, quite vehemently, in the lobby of the hospital. There has to be a reason we were shown that.

It means Lisa's angry with Kaufmann, which supports why Lisa is dragging him off in Nowhere after the final boss battle. It says nothing as to whether he killed her or not.

Quote:
Tommy is taking the ABSENSE of the word "manifestation" in Lost Memories to be indicative of their real nature. It is not a positive statement that convinces him, it's a negative absense of a word. I think it's just sloppy wording and Tommy is being too much of a literalist, which he tends to be (unless it doesn't support one of his ideas, of course).

Personal attacks aside, Lost Memories states that the parasites that are on the nurses are the same ones that possessed Cybil.

Cybil is not a manifestation, is she?

Quote:
The bleeding has nothing to do with how the real Lisa died.

You don't know that obviously.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 25 Mar 2009
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Last seen at: Ann Arbor, Michigan
Quote:
As for the belief that Kaufmann killed Lisa, I think it has always come from the Intro scenes of Lisa fighting with Kaufmann, quite vehemently, in the lobby of the hospital. There has to be a reason we were shown that.


There's another bit of evidence to support this as well. At the end, when Kaufmann tries to escape the Otherworld as it's falling apart, it is Lisa who pulls him down into the fires below. Why would she do that if not to avenge her own death at the hands of Kaufmann? If Kaufmann had nothing to do with Lisa's downfall, why would she have done such a thing?


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SHH Cult Subscriber
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Missing since: 08 Jan 2006
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As Burning Man just stated in the post above yours, because she had some cause to be angry at him. It doesn't necessarily mean that Kaufmann had killed Lisa, though that was certainly the impression I got the first time I gave that scene any thought.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
>If Kaufmann had nothing to do with Lisa's downfall, why would she have done such a thing?

Probably for the same reason she was yelling at him in the intro movie... I agree with Burning Man, though, that doesn't necessarily mean he killed her.

I think a lot of us just jumped to a natural conclusion that Kaufmann had something to do with Lisa's death considering what we were shown (Lisa yelling, Lisa's ghost or whatever dragging him down somewhere), but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Damn girl could have OD'd for all we know--isn't that just as plausible? She was a drug addict, that much we know. In fact, if I wanted to, I could argue that Lisa's yelling and her 'ghost's' treatment of Kaufmann were just the ravings of a junkie looking for her fix... from beyond the grave! But I won't. Admittedly because I am lazy, but the point I wanted to make is this--those two scenes =/= concrete 100% evidence that it means only that Kaufmann had anything to do with Lisa's death. It can be interpreted or taken other ways.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Thanks, girls. I don't know what I would do without ya.

I forgot to ask before, but I found it odd that some people are willing to say that Kaufmann killed Lisa, but also say that Alessa created Lisa through her guilt. Why would Alessa feel guilty about Lisa's death is someone else killed her? Comparisons to Maria were made, but the killer and the guilty is the same person for her.

Sorry, but I don't see any coherency.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
To be fair, not everyone said that Alessa created Lisa out of guilt. Sympathy was also presented as a motive.

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Moderator
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 11988
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Even if Kaufmann killed Lisa, Alessa could blame herself because if not for her situation, Lisa never would have been put in a position to come to such direct blows with the Order. Let's not forget we're talking about a girl who has been victimized by not only her peers but every adult figure in her life as well, including her mother. There's sure to be a lot of internalized self-blaming victim mentality going on there.

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"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>I don't see any coherency.
A lot of the members at this forum don't believe in coherency.

They also don't know how to debate w/out petty insults, as Droo has evidenced, time & again, as he is wont to do. Tsk tsk.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
Droo wrote:
Even if Kaufmann killed Lisa, Alessa could blame herself because if not for her situation, Lisa never would have been put in a position to come to such direct blows with the Order. Let's not forget we're talking about a girl who has been victimized by not only her peers but every adult figure in her life as well, including her mother. There's sure to be a lot of internalized self-blaming victim mentality going on there.


That doesn't prove that Kaufmann killed her, though. I think you're assuming far too advanced an emotion for Alessa to have experienced about Lisa--you and I can easily say these things because (a) we're [young] adults and (b) we're not burned into crispy critters and in a coma. Alessa, if anything, probably just felt bad and sorry that Lisa was dead--so the best way to fix that problem? Make Lisa alive. Sort of.

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Moderator
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
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Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
The question is: does Alessa have the ability to reanimate a dead person or is the Lisa we see in SH1 not the real one?

And then we have the problem of just why or even how Lisa would continue to be tormented in the Otherworld for eternity after Alessa's death. Technically shouldn't Lisa cease to exist the moment Alessa dies? Whether she's a monster, a ghost of the real Lisa or actually the real Lisa, once Alessa dies, there's no one to maintain their existence.

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"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
>does Alessa have the ability to reanimate a dead person or is the Lisa we see in SH1 not the real one?

I think Lisa is real insofar as it looks, sounds and acts (for a time) like the real Lisa. I, personally, don't think she can reanimate a dead person, but in order to theorize and speculate about the next part of your post, I'm probably going to have to rethink my stance on that.

>Technically shouldn't Lisa cease to exist the moment Alessa dies?

Not quite. Impressions or 'imprints' of a person can still linger (in the case of spirits who 'haunt' a particular area). In Lisa's case, let's suppose she wasn't brought back to life but that it's still the same Lisa (sort of like she was 'sustained' in the Otherworld because of.. I don't know, her "soul" or her spirit). So, soul!Lisa falls apart when Alessa's control falls apart, and that is what undergoes all the torment and suffering and blah blah blah. The only way I can make sense of that "Lisa suffers forever" crap is that her spirit is trapped in the Otherworld because Alessa tried to preserve it, going against some natural order or whathaveyou. People are meant to die, Alessa played god a little, and Lisa's the one that ends up suffering.

Where does it say Lisa suffers, by the way? I'm totally blanking on its source.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Krist wrote:
>Technically shouldn't Lisa cease to exist the moment Alessa dies?

Not quite. Impressions or 'imprints' of a person can still linger (in the case of spirits who 'haunt' a particular area).

That and Alessa never "died" to begin with. She is still alive within Heather.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 14 Oct 2004
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That and Alessa never "died" to begin with


Alessa never dies, rebirth...

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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
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Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Krist. wrote:
Where does it say Lisa suffers, by the way? I'm totally blanking on its source.


Lost Memories, Chapter VII. It says:

Quote:
Just before the shift to the Otherworld in the hospital, the nurse Lisa, who appears in the first game can be seen. ...It indicates that even after the first game she continues to suffer in the Otherworld.


The above quote is by Masahiro Ito, the art director for SH3.

It also shows an image of the Nurse in Green Shoes that appears behind the ladder Heather climbs up and says:

Quote:
Lisa appears along with Valtiel. Could it be that her spirit must continue to endure endless suffering?


I have never liked or understood the assertion that the Nurse in Green Shoes is supposed to be Lisa. It looks nothing like her and Lisa wore red shoes, not green.

I would like to take a moment to point out again that it is Masahiro Ito who makes the claim that Lisa is enduring suffering post-SH1, NOT the actual writer of SH3, Hiroyuki Owaku. I am somewhat dubious, then, of whether or not Ito's claim truly reflects the intention of Owaku.

Does anyone else stop to wonder why in the hell Lisa's soul would be being tormented in Alternate Brookhaven when Alessa and Lisa were at Achemilla? Yes, the image of Lisa's videotape apperars in Brookhaven, but I chalk that up to Alessa awakening slowly within Heather as she is in Brookhaven. The claim that Lisa is bound up in Brookhaven in "reality", though, makes no sense to me. I would very much like someone to attempt to explain this to me.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11385
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
Perhaps it's because Lisa is bound to Alessa's conception of "hospital" in of itself, and it doesn't really matter which hospital it is, so long as Alessa remembers the suffering she associated with it. The Otherworld is basically a traversable series of symbols, anyway.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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