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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 23 Nov 2007
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I think I worded that wrong. What I meant was, that Lisa was coming to the realization of her death, thus triggering her to bleed from her head.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 16 Feb 2009
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>There was no parasite attached to Lisa at any point of the game. The only "parasite" character is Cybil, who ended up either getting killed or saved. When Lisa went down into the basement, she realized that she was the exact same as the others in the hospital, (dead). Lisa was dead since the beginning, and Kaufmann never really comes to the realization of his own death, and is instead punished by a raging mad Lisa.

No Cybil is not the only "parasite" character in the game. The whole staff of the hospital is infected with parasites. That huge zit on their backs is a parasite. They're called puppet nurses for a reason.

>We also know that Valtiel is responsible for preparing the monsters for metempsychosis.

Please explain. What is metempsychosis?


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Historical Society Historian
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Chloe Smith wrote:
She realized that she is just like the rest of the nurses and doctors roaming around in the hospital, and becomes bleeding as her mind lets her.

Why bleed from the head?

Quote:
The fact of the matter is, she's a ghost.

There are enough points to suggest that Lisa is not just a ghost. While it is true that she does possess ghost-like attributes, she also possesses human-like attributes as well.

Quote:
A parasite would attach to a living host. There is no mention of Lisa having a parasite in the game, nor is there any reason to believe that there is in my mind. If a parasite were to be in her head, I would think it would sprout of something.

While I understand where you're coming from, Cybil is not a case where her parasite sprouted. So we have at least one instance where a parasite sprouting is not always true. For what it's worth, Lisa is still different from the rest of the puppets in that she has a conscious, so it's not far-fetched to assume that Lisa's had not either.

Even if a parasite did burrow itself on Lisa's back, both her long, straight hair and red garments is enough to cover any sign of it up.

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The parasite would have expert timing to reveal itself and kill Lisa right after she tells Harry. Doesn't really connect in my mind.

It's not so much as the parasite's "expert timing," but Lisa's full realization that she is dead and has been all along.

I also don't believe that it happened right after Lisa tells Harry about her death. It's actually right after Harry pushes her away from him. That was the last straw to her realization that she is no longer human.

Quote:
Kaufmann is the most likely culprit of Lisa's demise. He was her drug supply, and she frequently rebelled and threatened to leave. He knew that she wouldn't leave, since she was addicted.

The problem is that there is absolutely no indication that Kaufmann killed Lisa. At least with the speculation that the parasite might have killed Lisa, it's simply a matter of how you interpret "I'm the same as them" line and a bit of reasoning.

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The reason that Lisa's body is in the otherworld is due to her connection with Alessa in my mind. Either Alessa punished her by keeping her alive even though Alessa wasn't getting any better, and her wounds wouldn't heal, but each day Lisa would take care of something that doesn't get better.

Heather's comment about Lisa suggests that Alessa had an overly positive view on Lisa. If anything, she would want to protect Lisa, not throw her into the otherworld for punishment.

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Moderator
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
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Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
The Puppet Nurse you can kill after Lisa's transformation cannot be Lisa, as nobody pointed out, Lisa appears in bloody but still recognizable form following the Incubus fight.

Has anyone ever come up with an explanation as to why Lisa would be tormented eternally in the Otherworld? Out of all the characters in SH1, she seems the least deserving of such punishment.

It makes no logical sense, and given that there is nothing in the games themselves to even remotely suggest this is the case, I am prepared to reject the assertion.

Burning Man wrote:
Of course, it is possible, and widely believed that Kaufmann may have killed her due to any number of reasons. However, if that were true, it still leaves the question as to why Lisa's body ended up in the otherworld. The nurses and doctors are believed to have been killed in the otherworld; Lisa would have made an odd exception to the rule as she would be the only one who died in the real world and her body was thrown into the otherworld.


Except we've already established that Lisa is unique from the Puppet Nurses. She is already an oddity. An outlier. An exception. She therefore does not have to have become what she is in the same way as the Puppet Nurses/Doctors. Is it not possible then that she is a construct of Alessa's entire creation even if the other Puppets aren't? It wouldn't be a radical assertion when you consider that all of the other monsters in SH1 are undeniably unreal manifestations.

Haven't we mostly agreed that Lisa herself is the Virun VII Crest of Alchemilla? If true, Alessa clearly has very specific designs in her. She is not merely a Puppet Nurse who has had a parasite burrow into her brain or some such nonsense. She is a monster with self-awareness and still acts like the person she is supposed to be.

If she is not the same as the Puppets, then there's no reason why she can't have been killed before SH1 occurs, since it's not her dead body being reanimated. Parasites and such don't need to factor into it at all.

When she says "I'm the same as them", it doesn't necessarily mean she IS a Puppet. Lisa is scared and confused. She has just learned she isn't human. She has gone and seen the other Puppets and just assumes she must be "the same", when she is only similar.

Consider this: Alessa feels guilty that Lisa, someone she grew to care about, ended up being killed because of her. Her guilty mind creates a Lisa who is not the real Lisa, but is an idealized version of her who is a monster by nature but doesn't quite know it yet. Does that sound familiar at all? It's Maria all over again. What if Lisa and Maria are similar beings?

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By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
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There you are.
There's my heart..."


Last edited by Droo on 26 Mar 2009, edited 2 times in total.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 16 Feb 2009
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Yeah that makes no sense. Assertion rejected.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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It makes perfect sense. The question is whether or not it's more solid in evidence than other ideas IMO, I have to side with Droo in general point; I also believe Lisa is a manifestation, and she doesn't seem to be parasitized whatsoever.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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No, the explanation doesn't make sense b/c it lacks consistency w/ the rest of the game.

And you all get on my case when I allegedly "reject assertions" b/c they go against facts. HA! Whatever.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Droo wrote:
The Puppet Nurse you can kill after Lisa's transformation cannot be Lisa, as nobody pointed out,

Huh? You never can kill Lisa either way.

Quote:
Lisa appears in bloody but still recognizable form following the Incubus fight.

I think you're taking the puppet nurses' uniform appearances a little too seriously. From a developer's perspective, he is not going to create a different looking model for every single puppet.

We might not recognize that the puppets were once humans due to technical constraints, but Lisa certainly did. She says that everyone else was dead and that she questioned why she was the only one that wasn't. She never once indicated the puppets as monsters as she recognized the puppets as her former colleages.

Quote:
Except we've already established that Lisa is unique from the Puppet Nurses. She is already an oddity. An outlier. An exception.

You do realize that what you just said can work against your own assertion that Lisa is a manifestation like all the other puppet nurses. Even if we assume that the puppet nurses are manifestations, by your own logic, we can make an exception for Lisa. Lisa would not have to be a manifestation then. Chloe already mentioned that she may be a ghost for instance.

Quote:
Consider this: Alessa feels guilty that Lisa, someone she grew to care about, ended up being killed because of her. Her guilty mind creates a Lisa who is not the real Lisa, but is an idealized version of her who is a monster by nature but doesn't quite know it yet. Does that sound familiar at all? It's Maria all over again. What if Lisa and Maria are similar beings?

Maria shows enough difference from her base model that is Mary. Lisa, on the other hand, is just Lisa actually. She is not an "idealized" version of herself at all. Even the Origins version didn't depict her as completely being troubled all the time. In the beginning, she was friendly and warm to Travis. So, there's not even any inconsistency between the behavior of Lisa from Origins and that of SH1, really.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 23 Nov 2007
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Burning Man wrote:
Why bleed from the head?


Why not? I think that the point of bleeding doesn't really matter in this instance. As you go on to state that Lisa has a parasite on her back, why wouldn't she begin to bleed from her back, and from her mouth like Cybil did. Cybil didn't bleed directly up from her head like Lisa did, so thus, there is a huge difference.

Quote:
There are enough points to suggest that Lisa is not just a ghost. While it is true that she does possess ghost-like attributes, she also possesses human-like attributes as well.


Possibly a cross between the two. I'm thinking that Lisa that we see in Silent Hill isn't the real Lisa, but a manifestation that Alessa made since she cared so much for her. After James runs away from Lisa, she didn't have any spoken dialouge. It seemed that her only intention at the moment was to drag down Kaufmann with her, which she did.


Quote:
While I understand where you're coming from, Cybil is not a case where her parasite sprouted. So we have at least one instance where a parasite sprouting is not always true. For what it's worth, Lisa is still different from the rest of the puppets in that she has a conscious, so it's not far-fetched to assume that Lisa's had not either.


Cybil's parasite made her bleed violently from her mouth, and attacks Harry right after becoming possessed. Lisa didn't attack anyone thoughout the entire game, and simply wanted help from Harry.

Quote:
Even if a parasite did burrow itself on Lisa's back, both her long, straight hair and red garments is enough to cover any sign of it up.


We never get the slightest indication that Lisa had a parasite on her back at all during the game.

Quote:
It's not so much as the parasite's "expert timing," but Lisa's full realization that she is dead and has been all along.

I also don't believe that it happened right after Lisa tells Harry about her death. It's actually right after Harry pushes her away from him. That was the last straw to her realization that she is no longer human.


Lisa's realization wouldn't have any effect on when the parasite decided to sprout. If anything, we should have seen a parasite, or had a file, ANYTHING that states Lisa had a parasite. But we lack this. We have no reason to believe that Lisa had a parasite.


Quote:
The problem is that there is absolutely no indication that Kaufmann killed Lisa. At least with the speculation that the parasite might have killed Lisa, it's simply a matter of how you interpret "I'm the same as them" line and a bit of reasoning.


Lisa said that she was the same as them. Meaning dead, not necissarily having a parasite in her. If she did have a parasite, she would have attacked James, much like Cybil did. Lisa was begging for help when Harry left, and didn't have the slightest intention of killing him.

Quote:
Heather's comment about Lisa suggests that Alessa had an overly positive view on Lisa. If anything, she would want to protect Lisa, not throw her into the otherworld for punishment.


As stated by the lovely Droo earlier on, Alessa really did care for Lisa, and felt guilty that her death was caused by her. So, in turn, she creates a Lisa that is a monster, but doesn't quite know it yet.

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Last edited by Chloe Smith on 26 Mar 2009, edited 1 time in total.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
Notes left: 12943
Last seen at: The Wand'ring Wood
^ It's Harry, not James.

And I'm sorry, I don't think any of you have so far come up with a sufficient explanation as to WHY Alessa would make a Lisa that is a monster when Alessa had no reason but to feel positively towards the woman. What's the point of making Lisa like that? It just doesn't make any sense and it's not really getting anywhere towards sensical with what I've read so far.

The only reason I can think of for Lisa's 'break down' is that she was only being kept in tact by Alessa's power. When the Flauros was used, Alessa's hold on the Otherworld became wonky and weak, thus weakening the control on Lisa, thus she physically starts to dissolve (bleed, break down, what-have-you). I don't see why this would mean she's a 'monster' or some abomination made by Alessa but hidden in Lisa's form...

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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No, the explanation doesn't make sense b/c it lacks consistency w/ the rest of the game.


Just like Lisa lacks consistency with the other beings in the game, human or otherwise.

Quote:
And I'm sorry, I don't think any of you have so far come up with a sufficient explanation as to WHY Alessa would make a Lisa that is a monster when Alessa had no reason but to feel positively towards the woman. It just doesn't make any sense and it's not really getting anywhere towards sensical with what I've read so far.


Tell that to James. He loved Mary, right? Why'd he make monster(s) about her? :P

In any case, Alessa isn't as lucid a dreamer as we sometimes like to think, and Lisa only began manifesting unpleasant traits after Alessa lost any sort of real influence over her world.

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I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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>Just like Lisa lacks consistency with the other beings in the game, human or otherwise.
Only . . . not. Have you not been paying attention?

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
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Chloe Smith wrote:
I think that the point of bleeding doesn't really matter in this instance.

Haha, reminds of a story where a boy shows the doctor his scratched knee and the doctor diagnoses that there must be something wrong with his head.

No, but seriously...

Quote:
As you go on to state that Lisa has a parasite on her back, why wouldn't she begin to bleed from her back

I said, "Even if..." I don't know where the parasite might have latched on to her, or if it's even there anymore.

Quote:
Cybil didn't bleed directly up from her head like Lisa did, so thus, there is a huge difference.

Cybil has a parasite on her back, which she is bleeding from. I did not say Lisa's parasite was on her back.

Quote:
I'm thinking that Lisa that we see in Silent Hill isn't the real Lisa, but a manifestation that Alessa made since she cared so much for her.

So, you kind of changed your mind there. Fair enough.

Quote:
Cybil's parasite made her bleed violently from her mouth, and attacks Harry right after becoming possessed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Cybil only bleed from her mouth after Harry kills her? I've seen people bleed violently from the mouth when they're beaten badly or shot to death.

Quote:
Lisa's realization wouldn't have any effect on when the parasite decided to sprout.

It certainly had an effect on when Lisa decided to start bleeding.

Quote:
If anything, we should have seen a parasite, or had a file, ANYTHING that states Lisa had a parasite. But we lack this. We have no reason to believe that Lisa had a parasite.

Had the puppet nurses all died in different ways, then it is possible that Lisa died in some other way as well. But Lisa is a part of the staff and she is comparing herself to them. We've agreed that a common cause killed off all the staff, so unless we know specifically that Lisa was killed some other way, then we need to start with the assumption that she was killed for the same reason that took the other staffs' lives.

You believe that Kaufmann killed Lisa, but there is absolutely no indication to support your theory.

Quote:
As stated by the lovely Droo earlier on, Alessa really did care for Lisa, and felt guilty that her death was caused by her. So, in turn, she creates a Lisa that is a monster, but doesn't quite know it yet.

We have absolutely no indication that Alessa felt guilty for Lisa's death. The "lovely Droo" is speculating based on Silent Hill 2 and brings it up as a possibility.

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2007
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So I would presume its safe to assume that Lisa doesn't really realize or show traits of being a Puppet Nurse/Ghost/What have you, until Alessa looses a grip on the Otherworld?

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 27 Aug 2003
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>Tell that to James. He loved Mary, right? Why'd he make monster(s) about her?

Because James, unlike Alessa, had been on the receiving end of Mary's wrath and not too many good times. Also he had good cause to believe she hated him--I don't know if I'm making much sense here, but I think a guilty mind would demonize or 'warp' someone precious to them. After all, James did it twice: with Mary into Maria and with the final boss (which is Maria in disguise like... 4 times out of 5). Alessa didn't endure anything negative from Lisa and any guilt she may have felt about her death is speculation, yes?

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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2009
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I'm too lazy to start the quoting thing, so I'll just type out my thoughts.

I think there is a strong possibility that the puppet staff is merely a manifestation.

Monstrous doctors and nurses being controlled by the large parasite mirror the real doctors and nurses who are controlled by PTV. The location of the parasite reminds me of the term "monkey on the back".

I always figured that they, like all of the other monsters are manifestations, how Alessa views that doctors and nurses, sort of like how gray children represent how Alessa saw her bullies.

I mean, wouldn't Heather later mention "This reminds me of the time I slaughtered the entire Alchemilla staff, and left all of their helpless patients in the real world locked, alone and possibly with opened chest... That shit was so cash." Or maybe read a memo about it. After all a mysterious disappearance of at least forty people is sort of a big deal.

Also, it wouldn't be the first time for Alessa to manifest her violent fantasies in the Otherworld. The robed figures representing the cultists are impaled, burned and tied with a barbed wire all over the place, but according to the official source they are just manifestations of Alessa's animosity towards them. So, she doesn't kill the cultists who she fantasies about killing, and who she's quite capable of killing, but she kills the staff who did nothing to her, why?

Cybil's possession was different. Alessa needed Harry to be distracted, sending any old monster at him wouldn't do, Harry would spend more time trying not to kill his only friend in the Otherworld then with any other monster. Two birds with one stone.


Also, I never once thought Lisa was a puppet nurse. Mainly because everything else with a parasite is trying to poke you in the face with a scalpel. Lisa is able to talk, walk and is fairly friendly. Her sentence "I'm the same as them" can be interpreted as Lisa realizing she's a manifestation, like all of the puppet staff, or if you prefer, that she's actually dead, like the rest of the staff.

I always figured that she started bleeding from the forehead because she was killed by being shot in the head, or bludgeoned to death. Alternatively, she's bleeding just because she was strongly disgusted by Alessa's constant bleeding, so much so she was hallucinating about it during withdrawals, and the place where the bleeding starts is unimportant.


Last edited by Arsonist on 26 Mar 2009, edited 1 time in total.

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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
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No one said the staff was officially killed by Alessa. I was offering an explanation. A more likely one is that the staff, too, was dragged into the otherworld and killed by the parasites.

Lisa, and the rest of the staff, being a manifestation is inconsistent w/ the official explanations. Therefore I reject the asseveration.

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. . . AND THAT'S THAT.


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2009
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Quote:
Lisa, and the rest of the staff, being a manifestation is inconsistent w/ the official explanations.


Where is that official explanation, anyway? I'm not being sarcastic, I really cannot find the source which outright states – "Doctors and nurses were real people, pulled in to the otherworld, and then possessed by parasites" and "Lisa is a living dead".

I did find a neat article which states that monsters we encounter in the Otherworld are Alessa’s dreams tough

"Mysterious monsters roam the deserted town, the same creatures that appear in Alessa's nightmares. Related to phenomena in her memories, they are materialized by stress, pressure, an anxious state of mind, and the like."

No mention of "exceptions" such as nurses and doctors.


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Historical Society Historian
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Lisa was special. Lisa was the only person in the world that Alessa loved. Lisa cared for Alessa, she was there everyday, changing her wounds, cleaning her up, trying to make Alessa as comfortable as possible. She may have even talked and/or sung and/or read stories to Alessa. She was like a big sister or a mother to Alessa.

That is why Lisa retains her human-like appearance and thought process. Alessa loves her and wants her to be w/ her in the Otherworld, though removed from the pain and terror.

But Lisa also abandonded Alessa, she quite her job as Alessa's nurse after she began to experiance the mental issues broguht on by the drug use. She began to hate to take care of Alessa, she probably stopped talking to her or doing all the nice things she used to do for Alessa.

That is why, was killed in the first place, eventually becoming a bleeding sad being and doomed to be alone for all eternity, because she left Alessa alone. And Alessa felt righteous in leaving Lisa alone in a hellish underworld, even though she was the only person to ever care for her.

This is of course, just my own opinon based on in-game conclusions I built up long ago.

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Rosewater Park Attendant
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Missing since: 25 Mar 2009
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I always thought Kaufmann was the one who apprehended Lisa, probably forced to do so by Dahlia for threatening to escape and expose The Order. Lisa and Kaufmann were having an argument, a pretty violent one judging by the way Lisa violently shoved Kaufmann away, so why would he just let her go?

As for those parasite-things, I think that Dahlia and Kaufmann uses those to infect people who know too much. Kaufmann must have put one of those in Lisa so that she would be forced to stay in the hospital, which is why she can't leave. Remember in the boat when Dahlia tells Harry and Cybil to split up? I think Dahlia followed Cybil and put one of those parasites inside of her so that she wouldn't screw up her plans.

Another point, anything that The Order can summon inside of other people can only be expelled by Aglaophotis. For example, God is only expelled by Kaufmann throwing the Aglaophotis at Alessa, and Cybil is only saved by Harry splashing her with Aglaophotis. So, those parasites must be connected to The Order, since The Order went to great pains to try and get rid of all the Aglaophotis in the town.

Back to Lisa again, I don't think it's accurate to say that she died upon finding out her "true nature." Alessa really liked Lisa, so she must have done something to nullify the parasite inside of Lisa. Of course, when Cheryl is finally captured by Dahlia, Silent Hill goes nuts and all of her control over the town is weakened, causing it to fluctuate and lose form. So then, her nullification of Lisa's parasite is lost as well, and Lisa is forced to become a nurse creature like the rest of them, thus the excessive bleeding.


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