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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Droo wrote:
The Lisa in SH1 is obviously not the real Lisa. It's a Puppet Nurse made up to look and act like her.

You make it sound like the "Puppet Nurse" is some sort of manifestation like all the other monsters.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
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Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
And even if they were, Lisa's not a Puppet Nurse; there's no infecting parasite or anything.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 27 Jan 2007
Notes left: 274
Last seen at: Ry'leh
She only died when she came back. Initially, he did let her go. Perhaps it was an act of kindness on his behalf? Either way, he killed her when she came back, so chances are she was blackmailing, threatening to tell about Alessa, the cult and the drug business.

I don't think he let her go to be kind. He knew she'd be back. It's not like he gave her a big bag of PTV and said "Bon Voyage". He knew she was addicted and since he's the one who controlled her drug supply he effectively forced her to return.

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Just Passing Through
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Missing since: 23 Nov 2007
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Last seen at: Silent Hill
I'm thinking that Lisa is there for her own punishment, as well as Harry's. I always thought of her as a way to make Harry feel horrible and sad. Her death was a huge scene, and had Harry's only friend in Silent Hill, it seemed, die, or realize that she's been dead the entire time.

I don't understand why Lisa earned a spot in Silent Hill. She didn't really do anything wrong, in my mind.

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You’re a rock star everybody wants you, Player… who can really blame you?


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Hope House Careworker
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Missing since: 12 Jan 2009
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Quote:
PTV is a powder. Not once is it depicted as a liquid in the series.


Interesting… I was sure I read several time, on this very forum, that the white powder is a raw substance which needed to be liquefied to be consumed, but now I can’t find any sort of information about it. :?

Either way, simply using the drug, does not make one a desperate addict, in theater Lisa definitively didn’t suffer withdrawals, and she generally didn’t seem like she’d fuck anyone for a high. In the theater she’s the happiest we had seen her in any game, she’s looking forward to what’s about to happen, most serious addicts don’t even look forward to drugs anymore, it’s just something they desperately crave, something they need to go on living, there is no fun in it at that point, especially if they have to demean themselves to get it.

Like I said before, it is my theory that Kaufmann seduced Lisa for sexual gain, and the encouraged her into doing drugs. Possibly using her as a test-subject for his drug, PTV.

Quote:
I don't think he let her go to be kind. He knew she'd be back. It's not like he gave her a big bag of PTV and said "Bon Voyage". He knew she was addicted and since he's the one who controlled her drug supply he effectively forced her to return.


A lot of drug addicts do want to get clean, get a fresh start and turn their life around. But in order to do that they need to break away from their dealer and stop taking drugs.

Granted, Lisa never expressed that desire, she just wanted to stop caring for Alessa, so chances are he did in fact knew she’d be back. But she didn’t have to, she was given a fair chance to turn her life around. He didn’t have to let her go, he could have just blackmailed her. Lisa was a fairly weak person after all. But he gave her a shot, disgusting pig or not, he did give her a chance to break away.

Quote:
I'm thinking that Lisa is there for her own punishment, as well as Harry's. I always thought of her as a way to make Harry feel horrible and sad. Her death was a huge scene, and had Harry's only friend in Silent Hill, it seemed, die, or realize that she's been dead the entire time.


Alessa didn’t hate Lisa though, she clung to her, because at that point, Lisa was the only friendly face Alessa saw. She didn’t hate Harry either, she loved him.

Alessa re-created Lisa to distract Harry in the friendliest way possible. She choose Lisa’s image because Alessa thought of Lisa as angelic “Lisa who was so heavenly towards me in that hellish hospital room”. She also gave Lisa a new start, creating a newer, better Lisa, who was as pure as Alessa thought she was, she gave “Lisa” a chance for a more peaceful death, one Alessa wanted to bestow upon herself as well.

Another thing, Lisa’s transformation happens after Alessa looses control over the Otherworld, therefore, it was not work of Alessa, but Lisa herself.

Quote:
She didn't really do anything wrong, in my mind.

No, Harry didn’t do anything wrong, Cybil didn’t do anything wrong and Cheryl didn’t do anything wrong, Lisa did. There are two kinds of evil people in this world, those who do evil, and those who see evil but do nothing about it.

Lisa is a great SH character, maybe one of the best, because of her flaws. She’s a good, kind person, ruled by her own vice, a vice which had led her into silence which had supported the very thing that had ruined her life. She’s a great character, but calling her innocent is more then pushing it.


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Moderator
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12089
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Burning Man wrote:
Droo wrote:
The Lisa in SH1 is obviously not the real Lisa. It's a Puppet Nurse made up to look and act like her.

You make it sound like the "Puppet Nurse" is some sort of manifestation like all the other monsters.


That's exactly what she is. She's a highly specialized manifestation, but a manifestation nonetheless.

It's not the real Lisa. It's a construct.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Droo wrote:
Burning Man wrote:
Droo wrote:
The Lisa in SH1 is obviously not the real Lisa. It's a Puppet Nurse made up to look and act like her.

You make it sound like the "Puppet Nurse" is some sort of manifestation like all the other monsters.


That's exactly what she is. She's a highly specialized manifestation, but a manifestation nonetheless.

It's not the real Lisa. It's a construct.

We've had discussions about this before. We don't know that Lisa is a manifestation.
Lisa is a "puppet nurse": one that hasn't realized that she's dead. That was the only thing that set her apart from all the other puppet nurses as she explains it to Harry herself.

Silent Hill does well to show you how one becomes a "puppet": Cybil. A parasite digs into the back of a live host and takes over the host's body when eventually the host itself dies and is nothing but an empty husk.

Of course, you can explain to me that puppet Cybil was also a "highly specialized manifestation" as well. Then, I could see where you're coming from, but I don't think the "puppets" are simple manifestations.

I would imagine that this whole "Lisa is a manifestation" business seems to hold more water because the one in Origins is far from the image that the one in the original portrayed. So, I suppose it would make sense to say that the one in the original was a construct based on Alessa's fond memories of her in addition to the "she got weird at the end" based on Heather's memories.

The problem is that based on information from the original, Lisa is not a manifestation. The "puppets" in general are not manifestations.

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The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.


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Moderator
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12089
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
What are the puppets, then? The actual Alchemilla nurses?

The way I see it: Alessa's nightmare nurses have the parasites as part of her fears of being of human controlled by an otherworldly being not of her own design (God). She knows she has to remove Cybil from the playing field (especially since her Lisa being has failed to nonviolently halt Harry's progress), so she uses the same parasites to turn Cybil into a Puppet.

The monsters are ALL manifestations in ALL the games. None of them are ever real except for God's various forms (and Homecoming casts doubt on even this). Alessa does not have the ability to reanimate the dead. I do not believe Lisa is still alive when SH1 takes place, so the Lisa we see in SH1 cannot be the real one.

As dubious as I find Origins and what it did with Lisa especially, there is some credence to the argument that the inconsistency with the "saintly" or idealized version of her we see in SH1 is clearly at odds with the more troubled individual she clearly was in reality.

It's quite simple, then. Lisa as we see her in SH1 is a monster, just like all the rest, specially manifested with Alessa's memories and concept of her imbued in her. This monster has a self-concept of Lisa Garland, and Alessa is able to maintain this monster as Lisa until she is weakened by Flauros. Once she is pierced by it, though, she no longer has the energy to maintain Lisa, who self-destructs just as dramatically as Alessa's nightware world, which is reduced to Nowhere. In a sense, Lisa too is effectively reduced to a No-one.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 01 Aug 2006
Notes left: 11386
Last seen at: I'm here, and waiting for you
The Puppet Nurses/Puppet Doctors = Hospital staff pulled over and possessed by manifested parasites, like Cybil.

Lisa = Lacks a parasite, was not a human pulled over but a totally dead person, has personality and memories inconsistent with her real self, needs Alessa's deliberate attention to hold together properly, unlike any other creature. Ergo, she is not a Puppet Nurse, and is either a straight manifestation, or some sort of brainwashed ghost.

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BlackFire2 wrote:
I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.


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Gravedigger
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Missing since: 06 Jan 2004
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AuraTwilight wrote:
..or some sort of brainwashed ghost.

Or just very, very confused.


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Moderator
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12089
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
AuraTwilight wrote:
The Puppet Nurses/Puppet Doctors = Hospital staff pulled over and possessed by manifested parasites, like Cybil.



Why? What is there to support this idea? None of the other monsters in the entire series have been anything close to real. What makes the Puppet Nurses so special that they are real nurses? No, they are no more real people than the dogs are real dogs or the pterodactyls are real pterodactyls.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 27 Jan 2007
Notes left: 274
Last seen at: Ry'leh
I never thought of them as real people or anything. I assumed they were monstrous looking because that's how Alessa would envision doctors and nurses since they're keeping her alive and in pain.

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Are you ready to begin your trip to the Otherside
Death is an old friend of mine


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Moderator
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12089
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
No, Alessa's manifestations are not born out of a desire for revenge. They are a manifestation of her fears. Specifically, the Puppet Nurses/Doctors are manifestations of her fear of hospitals.

Also, the parasites are, as I said before, representations of her fear of being controlled by something within her that makes her do bad things, like God.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Droo wrote:
What are the puppets, then? The actual Alchemilla nurses?

Hey, you're catching on. Don't forget the doctors, too.

Quote:
She knows she has to remove Cybil from the playing field (especially since her Lisa being has failed to nonviolently halt Harry's progress), so she uses the same parasites to turn Cybil into a Puppet.

Manifestations are rarely "controlled" if at all. Alessa should be no exception, really. It's the power of the town that manifests something from one's subconscious.

The parasites are manifestations of Alessa's fear of the god growing inside her. But just as Alessa herself is real, so are the husks that the parasites control.

Again, Cybil is considered real. If you're going to say the the puppets are manifestations, then so should Cybil.

Quote:
The monsters are ALL manifestations in ALL the games.

The puppets would be the exception.

Quote:
Alessa does not have the ability to reanimate the dead.

That's the parasites' ability.

Quote:
I do not believe Lisa is still alive when SH1 takes place, so the Lisa we see in SH1 cannot be the real one.

Lisa being dead does not imply manifestation, though.

Quote:
As dubious as I find Origins and what it did with Lisa especially, there is some credence to the argument that the inconsistency with the "saintly" or idealized version of her we see in SH1 is clearly at odds with the more troubled individual she clearly was in reality.

Origins didn't depict her as always being troubled, though. Aesthetics aside, she was quite nice to Travis in the beginning.

Officially, Lisa is schizophrenic, so this should explain Lisa's seeming duality. "Manifestation" isn't the answer to everything.

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© 2003-2009 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 27 Jan 2007
Notes left: 274
Last seen at: Ry'leh
Droo wrote:
No, Alessa's manifestations are not born out of a desire for revenge. They are a manifestation of her fears. Specifically, the Puppet Nurses/Doctors are manifestations of her fear of hospitals.

Also, the parasites are, as I said before, representations of her fear of being controlled by something within her that makes her do bad things, like God.


I've got to agree with you. I never even thought of them as being real people, ever. Or at one time having been real people.

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Are you ready to begin your trip to the Otherside
Death is an old friend of mine


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Moderator
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Missing since: 21 Jul 2003
Notes left: 12089
Last seen at: Nova Scotia, Canada
Manifestations are generally not controlled, yes, but Alessa is a different story. She exerts a high level of control over the world she creates.

If it's real Lisa, what did she do? Pluck Lisa's corpse (wherever it might be) from reality and plop it into alternate Alchemilla?

Whether or not Cybil in SH1 is real is debatable (see my topic on Cybil in the Quicklinks). Even if she is, she's only there because she got sucked in by her proximity to Harry when Cheryl merged with her other half on the highway, same as Harry. They were accidental, yes, but it was due to proximity.

Kaufmann is there by design by Alessa for punishment. He's the rare exception to the rule that Alessa is not motivated by revenge. Dahlia is either there for revenge as well or by active design on her part.

Lisa, on the other hand, has no reason to really be there. She was not proximate to Cheryl when they merged. She is not there for punishment by Alessa.

Since when is Lisa schizophrenic? She shows absolutely no clinical indicia of schizophrenia. I highly highly doubt that a schizophrenic would be able to become a nurse.

Finally, I still see no reason to suggest that the Puppets are really nurses and doctors. Are the other Nurses in the series real nurses? No. Are the dogs real? No. The parasites may REPRESENT the ability to control the dead, but I see no reason to suppose that the nurses are themselves real.

Unless of course all the nurses at Alchemilla looked exactly like each other.

_________________
"I dreamt last night I saw you
A single spark explosion negotiating with the dead
By the bright lights in some ICU on my chest you put your head
and said "There you are.
There you are.
There's my heart..."


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RESPECT
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Missing since: 19 Jul 2003
Notes left: 19402
Last seen at: #lfk
The puppet nurses and doctors are officially the nurses and doctors of Alchemilla Hospital parasitized and thus controlled by said parasite. Lost Memories: Silent Hill Chronicles indicates so in the Silent Hill section: "A nurse that has been parasitized by something." The book does not read "a manifestation," but instead matter-of-factly asseverates "a nurse."

>they are no more real people than the dogs are real dogs or the pterodactyls
None of the other creatures have had a parasite. Cybil does. Cybil is a real person. The nurses/doctors are real nurses/doctors.

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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
Droo wrote:
Manifestations are generally not controlled, yes, but Alessa is a different story. She exerts a high level of control over the world she creates.

Such as?

Make no mistake: Alessa has powers of her own such as astral projection, but she doesn't have control over the world that was created from the town's power: not what she created herself.

If what you said were true, Alessa would have thrown the whole world into void from the very beginning. There would be no need for her to use the "Seal of Metatron."

Quote:
Even if she is, she's only there because she got sucked in by her proximity to Harry when Cheryl merged with her other half on the highway, same as Harry.

Cybil's bike was already wasted on the side of the road way before Harry "hit" Alessa on the highway.

Quote:
Lisa, on the other hand, has no reason to really be there.

Lisa is in the otherworld for the same reason that the rest of the staff are there. Also, don't forget where the physical Alessa is. Going by your proximity theory, it's not unusual that all the staff, with the exception of Kaufmann, got thrown into the otherworld due to their proximity to the physical Alessa.

Quote:
Since when is Lisa schizophrenic?

Since 2001 when Silent Hill 2 Koushiki Kanzen Guidebook was published. I've mentioned this before, too, and I think you asked the same thing then.

Quote:
Finally, I still see no reason to suggest that the Puppets are really nurses and doctors.

Again, Cybil. Your logic simply dictates that Cybil must not be real since she's a puppet. There is no room for debate.

The only way you can explain Lisa as a manifestation is that if - and only if - you say that Puppet Cybil is also a manifestation. It's not like you can apply one logic to one individual, and then apply another logic to another individual when it comes to puppets.

And, then you have to explain what Puppet Cybil represents. If Puppet Nurses/Doctors are Alessa's fear of hospitals, then Puppet Cybil is what? Her fear of police stations?

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© 2003-2009 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.


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Cafe5to2 Waitress
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Missing since: 27 Jan 2007
Notes left: 274
Last seen at: Ry'leh
If what you said were true, Alessa would have thrown the whole world into void from the very beginning. There would be no need for her to use the "Seal of Metatron."

But she wasn't using the seal only for that purpose, she was also using it to hide herself from Dahlia.

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Are you ready to begin your trip to the Otherside
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Historical Society Historian
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Missing since: 15 Jul 2003
Notes left: 2368
FatalFrame wrote:
But she wasn't using the seal only for that purpose, she was also using it to hide herself from Dahlia.

Are you sure?

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© 2003-2009 Burning Man.
The contents of this post may only be used within the boundaries of www.silenthillforum.com.
Any usage outside of the aforementioned forum is strictly prohibited.


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