Dark Alessa not he devil, but....
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Dark Alessa not he devil, but....
I believe that the official explanation (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the dark Alessa is merely the manifestation of Alessa's "bad side", and that's fair enough, but I find it somewhat personally unsatisfying, too cut-and-dry if you like.
When I watch the movie, what is impressed upon me is a sense that the dark Alessa is distinctly "other", especially the scene where she "arrives" at the burned Alessa's bedside, whether the filmmakers intended it or not it sure does look like an entity being summoned from beyond as opposed to from within.
That, in combination with the implication that Alessa's birth was unnatural (whether by a sort of virgin birth or by a father not of this world) generates the feeling, for me at least, that there are powers at play in the movie beyond the relatively mundane innate psychic (psionic/psychokinetic?) powers of Alessa. That perhaps there is more to the cult of the town than a bunch of dogmatic extremists, more reality to the mythology than is apparent from Rose's perspective.
Perhaps my imagination is simply being influenced too much by the games; the "many gods and angels" of SH3, but the whole " I have many names, right now I'm the dark part of Alessa", emphasis on the "right now" just smacks of divine intervention from where I'm sitting, an angel of retribution perhaps, or an Azrael figure.
Hopefully you've gathered from the above that I'm not saying my interpretation is better or more correct than what the writer and director have implied in interviews, that would be dumb, but I do believe that art-forms have room for more than one interpretation, I guess I'm saying please don't flame me for this thread, lol.
Any thoughts?
When I watch the movie, what is impressed upon me is a sense that the dark Alessa is distinctly "other", especially the scene where she "arrives" at the burned Alessa's bedside, whether the filmmakers intended it or not it sure does look like an entity being summoned from beyond as opposed to from within.
That, in combination with the implication that Alessa's birth was unnatural (whether by a sort of virgin birth or by a father not of this world) generates the feeling, for me at least, that there are powers at play in the movie beyond the relatively mundane innate psychic (psionic/psychokinetic?) powers of Alessa. That perhaps there is more to the cult of the town than a bunch of dogmatic extremists, more reality to the mythology than is apparent from Rose's perspective.
Perhaps my imagination is simply being influenced too much by the games; the "many gods and angels" of SH3, but the whole " I have many names, right now I'm the dark part of Alessa", emphasis on the "right now" just smacks of divine intervention from where I'm sitting, an angel of retribution perhaps, or an Azrael figure.
Hopefully you've gathered from the above that I'm not saying my interpretation is better or more correct than what the writer and director have implied in interviews, that would be dumb, but I do believe that art-forms have room for more than one interpretation, I guess I'm saying please don't flame me for this thread, lol.
Any thoughts?
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Funny that you mentioned her father...
I always thought it was something NOT human, since Dahlia stays so silent about it.
And while Dark Alessa is a manifestation, it really doesn't seem like it. like you said, it looks like an outer being of sorts. I know she isn't it just seems that way because of how the movie portrays her.
It would add more of an explanation as to why people hated Alessa other than "she's a bastard." I don't think the cult would go on burning bastards like that if it's such a special case, much less having a special place to do that.
I always thought it was something NOT human, since Dahlia stays so silent about it.
And while Dark Alessa is a manifestation, it really doesn't seem like it. like you said, it looks like an outer being of sorts. I know she isn't it just seems that way because of how the movie portrays her.
It would add more of an explanation as to why people hated Alessa other than "she's a bastard." I don't think the cult would go on burning bastards like that if it's such a special case, much less having a special place to do that.
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Dark Alessa looks so much like the devil because she's meant to metaphorically represent the Christian devil, just as Sharon metaphorically represents God. Really, there's nothing in the film that can't be explained as Alessa being Dark Alessa and, had there been another interpretation of Dark Alessa, we'd have heard about it in interviews by now.
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And "LOL I'm the Devil and the cult was technically 100% right" isn't cut-and-dry?I believe that the official explanation (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the dark Alessa is merely the manifestation of Alessa's "bad side", and that's fair enough, but I find it somewhat personally unsatisfying, too cut-and-dry if you like.
and yet at the same time it perfectly resembles how people meet the Shadow Archetype in their dreams, according to Carl Jung.When I watch the movie, what is impressed upon me is a sense that the dark Alessa is distinctly "other", especially the scene where she "arrives" at the burned Alessa's bedside, whether the filmmakers intended it or not it sure does look like an entity being summoned from beyond as opposed to from within.
There's no such implication of Alessa having an unnatural birth, only that Dahlia didn't want to talk about it. Children born out of wedlock is pretty common, and pretty commonly shameful.
That, in combination with the implication that Alessa's birth was unnatural (whether by a sort of virgin birth or by a father not of this world) generates the feeling, for me at least, that there are powers at play in the movie beyond the relatively mundane innate psychic (psionic/psychokinetic?) powers of Alessa. That perhaps there is more to the cult of the town than a bunch of dogmatic extremists, more reality to the mythology than is apparent from Rose's perspective.
And yet, she is also giving Rose "the truth." If she wasn't just Alessa's dark side, she wouldn't say so. She has many names because the cult demonizes her as the Devil and calls her the Reaper, and she's more than happy to fill the role. Speaking of the games, a lot of people will argue that the gods and angels of the main SH universe are just delusions, too.Perhaps my imagination is simply being influenced too much by the games; the "many gods and angels" of SH3, but the whole " I have many names, right now I'm the dark part of Alessa", emphasis on the "right now" just smacks of divine intervention from where I'm sitting, an angel of retribution perhaps, or an Azrael figure.
There's deleted scenes of Alessa using her psychokinetic powers on school field trips and stuff.It would add more of an explanation as to why people hated Alessa other than "she's a bastard." I don't think the cult would go on burning bastards like that if it's such a special case, much less having a special place to do that.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
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Dude, people say the same thing about kids all the time. If a two year-old makes it to the potty as opposed to peeing in his Underoos, he's a god damn rocket surgeon.JRamirez35 wrote:And yet, Gans talks about how how grown-up she was and how it was so easy to explain things to her. Why would he say that if he didn't explain to her the full truth about her character?
I'm quite sure Gans did not go so far as to explain Jungian psychology, in depth, to that child.
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I doubt Gans even knew anything about Jung, he was just expanding on what's in the game. Plus, I'm pretty sure Gans has stated he can't stand child actors, so a compliment like that from him is a big deal. And how can you possibly claim he didn't explain her characters to her, when nothing's she's said has ever differed from what he's said? They have both stated the character is the dark part of Alessa- clearly, he did explain it to her.
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*puts on crazy theory hat*JRamirez35 wrote:It would add more of an explanation as to why people hated Alessa other than "she's a bastard." I don't think the cult would go on burning bastards like that if it's such a special case, much less having a special place to do that..
Just letting my imagination run wild here, but maybe like I suggested in the OP there is more going on in the town and with the cult than meets the eye, perhaps these "witches" that keep popping up and being burned are the offspring of deities linked to the cult in some way. Or, perhaps similar to that film The Reaping, they're messengers (angels) of the Order's God, the final messenger - Alessa - being the Reaper, an angel of final judgement.
*takes of crazy theory hat*
It's funny you say that, because I don't see her as a Christian devil figure at all when I watch the film, more perhaps like the original Ha-Satan of Job etc as an agent of God. If anything, to me, she represents divine retribution, not evil so much.JRamirez35 wrote:Dark Alessa looks so much like the devil because she's meant to metaphorically represent the Christian devil, just as Sharon metaphorically represents God.
I know, like I tried to explain (perhaps not all that well) in my OP, I'm not putting anything I'm saying forward as a viable alternative theory, just what I see when I watch the film. Plus, if everybody just nodded their heads at the official explanation and left it at that, the discussion might get a bit dull don't you reckon?JRamirez35 wrote:Really, there's nothing in the film that can't be explained as Alessa being Dark Alessa and, had there been another interpretation of Dark Alessa, we'd have heard about it in interviews by now.
God, no that would suck hard. Not really what I'm trying to say though.AuraTwilight wrote:And "LOL I'm the Devil and the cult was technically 100% right" isn't cut-and-dry?
I'll take your word for that, Jung's a bit too theoretical for me.AuraTwilight wrote:and yet at the same time it perfectly resembles how people meet the Shadow Archetype in their dreams, according to Carl Jung.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Personally, I see an implication of unnatural involvment.AuraTwilight wrote: There's no such implication of Alessa having an unnatural birth, only that Dahlia didn't want to talk about it. Children born out of wedlock is pretty common, and pretty commonly shameful.
You gotta wonder, would the shame of having a bastard child really be worse than the daily torment Alessa and Dahlia suffered at the hands of the Order?
The reason I imagine she wouldn't want to give a name for the father was that it was the lesser of two evils, better have the Order shun/mock them than admit the father was something eldritch and risk being accused of consorting with "demons" and killed.
You say "just", she said "right now", implying (again, perhaps only to me) that she was something else prior and will be something else in the future.AuraTwilight wrote: And yet, she is also giving Rose "the truth." If she wasn't just Alessa's dark side, she wouldn't say so.
Eh, fair enough if that's all you see, I see the implication from the 'many names' reference that she is known by many people, many cultures. I mean, the Order have what, like 3 names for her? Your explanation doesn't satisfy for me, but like I say I'm not trying to suggest you're at all wrong or anything, I'm aware I'm not voicing the implied official version, just giving my own viewpoint.AuraTwilight wrote:She has many names because the cult demonizes her as the Devil and calls her the Reaper, and she's more than happy to fill the role.
I've read that, it's an interesting idea.AuraTwilight wrote:Speaking of the games, a lot of people will argue that the gods and angels of the main SH universe are just delusions, too.
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How is the dark aspect of Alessa supposed to represent the devil? And how, exactly, does she even look like the devil? Que? Especially with the contrast of Rose as god. That doesn't even make sense. I imagine you're basing this off of Jodelle saying "I always wanted to play the devil"
Gans, believe it or not, is actually a brilliant filmmaker; taking that in conjunction with the fact that he is a fan of the Silent Hill series, I am sure that he has considered the psychological and artistic influences on the details of Silent Hill, and given that she was probably 10 years old at the time, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have grasped any details beyond demonizing traits, if Gans even bothered.
"I have many names" could mean anything. Given the situation, it is probably a reference to the Order, and in turn a reference to demons and "We are legion."
Gans, believe it or not, is actually a brilliant filmmaker; taking that in conjunction with the fact that he is a fan of the Silent Hill series, I am sure that he has considered the psychological and artistic influences on the details of Silent Hill, and given that she was probably 10 years old at the time, I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have grasped any details beyond demonizing traits, if Gans even bothered.
"I have many names" could mean anything. Given the situation, it is probably a reference to the Order, and in turn a reference to demons and "We are legion."
"Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."
[size=84]The Gospel of Thomas, logion 7.[/size]
[size=84]The Gospel of Thomas, logion 7.[/size]
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According to Gans, Silent Hill is based on the belief that every person has the ability to become god and/or the devil. So yes, Dark Alessa is meant to represent the devil and Sharon is meant to represent God. And I'm not sure what you're talking about neonblack, Jodelle's never stated her character is anything but the dark side of the soul.
I don't know what you're referencing. Is this on a commentary or something? Either way, I fail to see how dark Alessa is a representation of the devil. Would you care to explain?
In the 'making of' for the film, Jodelle states "I always wanted to play the devil." in reference to the dark Alessa character.
In the 'making of' for the film, Jodelle states "I always wanted to play the devil." in reference to the dark Alessa character.
"Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."
[size=84]The Gospel of Thomas, logion 7.[/size]
[size=84]The Gospel of Thomas, logion 7.[/size]
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Where?I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Personally, I see an implication of unnatural involvment.
You're not understanding the religious groupthink mindset here. Dahlia, under the more secular scenario, broke religious taboo, SOCIAL taboo, and slept with someone outside of marriage, someone who might not be part of their church. If there was a supernatural being at fault, she's pretty much free as those things usually involve rape, as opposed to spawning a child out of willful sin.You gotta wonder, would the shame of having a bastard child really be worse than the daily torment Alessa and Dahlia suffered at the hands of the Order?
The reason I imagine she wouldn't want to give a name for the father was that it was the lesser of two evils, better have the Order shun/mock them than admit the father was something eldritch and risk being accused of consorting with "demons" and killed.
More like "Better the cult try and "purify" her daughter than both of them getting hung and burned for being sinful."
The cult called her the Reaper and the Devil, and she played that role as part of Alessa's revenge fantasy. But when she gives Rose the truth, she calls herself Alessa's Dark Side. She can't be both, Alessa isn't God.You say "just", she said "right now", implying (again, perhaps only to me) that she was something else prior and will be something else in the future.
We hear three names on camera, but it's implied to be so much more. Either way, Alessa is only like...a few decades old. Her dark side can't be a cthlonic being.Eh, fair enough if that's all you see, I see the implication from the 'many names' reference that she is known by many people, many cultures. I mean, the Order have what, like 3 names for her?
@NeonBlack: Dark Side = Devil = Dark Alessa. Good Side = God = Sharon. You're reading way too much into this.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
Well, like I already said the "if you'd just name a father" bit, everyone calling her a witch, her powers. To me, all imply an unusual conception and hence an unusual father, if there was a father at all.AuraTwilight wrote: Where?
I disagree. Adultery and fornication are social taboos so commonly committed in every society the world over, that even in the cult of Silent Hill Dahlia would most certainly not have been the first person to have committed them.AuraTwilight wrote: You're not understanding the religious groupthink mindset here. Dahlia, under the more secular scenario, broke religious taboo, SOCIAL taboo, and slept with someone outside of marriage, someone who might not be part of their church. If there was a supernatural being at fault, she's pretty much free as those things usually involve rape, as opposed to spawning a child out of willful sin.
Admitting such would have got them shunned, perhaps punished but I doubt with death keeping in mind that the cult was living within a modern town, they simply would not have gotten away with burning everyone who sinned within their midst.
The way I see it, the reason they burned Alessa was to purify her, to rid her of whatever demon they imagined was causing her powers, she was a special case, a witch, not a sinner as such.
If Dahlia had admitted her daughter was the result of supernatural forces, I reckon both she and Alessa would have been burned for consorting with demons, as similar witch-hunting cults did in the real-world. Any interaction with demons would have meant death not a get-out-of-jail-free card because it wasn't consensual.
Like I said, I don't think they burnt her just because Dahlia wouldn't name a father, but because they thought her a witch with regard to her powers.AuraTwilight wrote:More like "Better the cult try and "purify" her daughter than both of them getting hung and burned for being sinful."
I see the possibility that the Dark Alessa is an outside entity manifesting "right now" as the dark side of Alessa. And which in the past has manifested under many other guises, in many other cultures and under many names.AuraTwilight wrote: The cult called her the Reaper and the Devil, and she played that role as part of Alessa's revenge fantasy. But when she gives Rose the truth, she calls herself Alessa's Dark Side. She can't be both, Alessa isn't God.
Where?AuraTwilight wrote:We hear three names on camera, but it's implied to be so much more.
Of course it can, in a movie where people can be sucked into an alternate dimension populated with acid spewing monsters and giant dudes with pointy helmets I think there might be room for an entity which takes material form via the dark side of the human psyche, especially when that human is already possessed of paranormal abilities.AuraTwilight wrote:Either way, Alessa is only like...a few decades old.
Her dark side can't be a cthlonic being.
No offence intended, but if I may ask; you seem reluctant to explore alternative interpretations. Is it just weariness of having to re-educate people who believe something to be the official explanation when it isn't (not something I'm doing in this thread) or is there another reason?
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They're a dumbass cult. If she says "The devil raped me" or whatever, she'd probably get off scott free. She doesn't give a name because she sinned and had sex with some guy she didn't marry and who probably wasn't part of their church, so she stayed silent.Well, like I already said the "if you'd just name a father" bit, everyone calling her a witch, her powers. To me, all imply an unusual conception and hence an unusual father, if there was a father at all.
And all of that can be applied to the "Born of of wedlock" theory. It seems the only reason you're really arguing for a supernatural father is because of Alessa's powers, correct? Except that humans with two human parents have psychic powers in the Silent Hill series. Demon parents aren't necessary.I disagree. Adultery and fornication are social taboos so commonly committed in every society the world over, that even in the cult of Silent Hill Dahlia would most certainly not have been the first person to have committed them.
Admitting such would have got them shunned, perhaps punished but I doubt with death keeping in mind that the cult was living within a modern town, they simply would not have gotten away with burning everyone who sinned within their midst.
The way I see it, the reason they burned Alessa was to purify her, to rid her of whatever demon they imagined was causing her powers, she was a special case, a witch, not a sinner as such.
If Dahlia had admitted her daughter was the result of supernatural forces, I reckon both she and Alessa would have been burned for consorting with demons, as similar witch-hunting cults did in the real-world. Any interaction with demons would have meant death not a get-out-of-jail-free card because it wasn't consensual.
Either way, the Dark side of Alessa is her TRUE self. "Right now, I'm the Dark Side of Alessa" means that Right Now, while giving Rose the truth, she drops all guises, pretenses, masks, and acts, revealing her true nature and telling Rose what's really going on. She's just Alessa's dark side, and this is all to get revenge on people who really, really fucking deserve it.I see the possibility that the Dark Alessa is an outside entity manifesting "right now" as the dark side of Alessa. And which in the past has manifested under many other guises, in many other cultures and under many names.
(And if Alessa really is a supernatural being then you're pretty much saying by implication that the cult was doing the morally right thing by trying to burn her, and aren't responsible for her hell because she's demon-possessed and the fire ritual went awry.)
Christabella. "We call it all sorts of things, but the Demon is more horrible than anything we can call it."Where?
That's a cop-out. It's fallacious to say that just because other crazy supernatural stuff happened, the rest of this stuff did. Especially given that this is pretty much taking from the first game, so the "soul split" thing is more likely than "horrible monster possessing Alessa for some reason and taking interest in this decades-long errand it gains nothing from unless it actually is Alessa's Dark Side."Of course it can, in a movie where people can be sucked into an alternate dimension populated with acid spewing monsters and giant dudes with pointy helmets I think there might be room for an entity which takes material form via the dark side of the human psyche, especially when that human is already possessed of paranormal abilities.
A number of reasons. First of all, if Dark Alessa is a demon or anything, it messes up her motive and skews her character, it makes the developers liars, it justifies the cult's actions and takes away the entire aesop of the movie, it makes Alessa out to be a completely unsympathetic villain, it makes Dahlia out to be some random bitch whore, instead of a relatively innocent mother who made a mistake, and it means by implication and precedent that Sharon is God Almighty.No offence intended, but if I may ask; you seem reluctant to explore alternative interpretations. Is it just weariness of having to re-educate people who believe something to be the official explanation when it isn't (not something I'm doing in this thread) or is there another reason?
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]
If you say so, I don't agree though.AuraTwilight wrote: They're a dumbass cult. If she says "The devil raped me" or whatever, she'd probably get off scott free. She doesn't give a name because she sinned and had sex with some guy she didn't marry and who probably wasn't part of their church, so she stayed silent.
I'm not arguing for a supernatural father over a human father as such, I'm offering an alternate interpretation, I'm not saying I'm correct, I'm just saying what I see.AuraTwilight wrote: And all of that can be applied to the "Born of of wedlock" theory. It seems the only reason you're really arguing for a supernatural father is because of Alessa's powers, correct? Except that humans with two human parents have psychic powers in the Silent Hill series. Demon parents aren't necessary.
While I agree with what you say, I also think there might be more to it.AuraTwilight wrote:Either way, the Dark side of Alessa is her TRUE self. "Right now, I'm the Dark Side of Alessa" means that Right Now, while giving Rose the truth, she drops all guises, pretenses, masks, and acts, revealing her true nature and telling Rose what's really going on. She's just Alessa's dark side, and this is all to get revenge on people who really, really fucking deserve it.
Not at all.AuraTwilight wrote:(And if Alessa really is a supernatural being then you're pretty much saying by implication that the cult was doing the morally right thing by trying to burn her, and aren't responsible for her hell because she's demon-possessed and the fire ritual went awry.)
Satan was initially God's servant in Judaism, only later was the office of the Satan given a character and placed in opposition to God. Similarly, the Dark Alessa could be an Angel of Retribution, sent by God to exact Her revenge, the cult see her as evil, doesn't mean she is though.
Thank you.AuraTwilight wrote:Christabella. "We call it all sorts of things, but the Demon is more horrible than anything we can call it."
Divine retribution, it's really not that much of a stretch for the imagination.AuraTwilight wrote: That's a cop-out. It's fallacious to say that just because other crazy supernatural stuff happened, the rest of this stuff did. Especially given that this is pretty much taking from the first game, so the "soul split" thing is more likely than "horrible monster possessing Alessa for some reason and taking interest in this decades-long errand it gains nothing from unless it actually is Alessa's Dark Side."
Thanks for answering that.AuraTwilight wrote:
A number of reasons. First of all, if Dark Alessa is a demon or anything, it messes up her motive and skews her character, it makes the developers liars, it justifies the cult's actions and takes away the entire aesop of the movie, it makes Alessa out to be a completely unsympathetic villain, it makes Dahlia out to be some random bitch whore, instead of a relatively innocent mother who made a mistake, and it means by implication and precedent that Sharon is God Almighty.
I think perhaps you've been misreading my posts, because I've never suggested any of that. What I am saying is that I see more to the movie than what you are arguing. I've never said that the Dark Alessa isn't the dark side of Alessa, I've never said that Sharon is God (not quite sure where that's come from actually), nor have I said that my interpretation is better than or even conflicts with what the film makers have said in interviews. I just see more, whether it was intentional or not.
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Alright, fine, but be aware that it's not the correct interpretation, and it greatly skews a lot of themes and plot elements.I'm not arguing for a supernatural father over a human father as such, I'm offering an alternate interpretation, I'm not saying I'm correct, I'm just saying what I see.
Dark Side. Devil. Revenge. There's nothing Godly or morally right about what Dark Alessa is doing, and she has no pretense about it. She knows she's just indulging in selfish revenge and doesn't really give a fuck.Not at all.
Satan was initially God's servant in Judaism, only later was the office of the Satan given a character and placed in opposition to God. Similarly, the Dark Alessa could be an Angel of Retribution, sent by God to exact Her revenge, the cult see her as evil, doesn't mean she is though.
What I said was all necessary implications that you can't avoid if Alessa had a supernatural father or if the Dark Alessa is a supernatural being. Either Alessa had a mortal father and the cult burned an innocent girl, or Alessa is hellspawn and the cult was totally in the moral right. You can't have it both ways.I think perhaps you've been misreading my posts, because I've never suggested any of that. What I am saying is that I see more to the movie than what you are arguing. I've never said that the Dark Alessa isn't the dark side of Alessa, I've never said that Sharon is God (not quite sure where that's come from actually), nor have I said that my interpretation is better than or even conflicts with what the film makers have said in interviews. I just see more, whether it was intentional or not.
As for Sharon being God, the developers said that Dark Alessa and Sharon symbolically represent everyone's potential to be God or the Devil. Guess who's who.
[quote="BlackFire2"]I thought he meant the special powers of her vagina.[/quote]