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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted

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Kenji wrote:
I suppose a good alternative case would be whether Metal Gear Solid (which, for the sake of trivia, was Kojima's characteristically punny way of saying "Metal Gear 3" while emphasizing the 3D models) was a sequel or a reboot, as it more or less performed the function of both.

I think anybody that says Metal Gear Solid was a reboot doesn't understand what that word means. Metal Gear Solid directly continued the storyline that started in the first two Metal Gear games, directly referencing their events even.

Quote:
We might both be a little out of our depth here, but from what I know and have played (I have Kyuuyaku Megami Tensei for SFC), in Megami Tensei 2, the original MT is a dungeon crawler video game the protagonist plays in his spare time... though the Devil Summoning Program may have been invented by Nakajima (protagonist of MT and Nishitani's light novels)... who, incidentally, is heavily implied to be Pascal's (your pet dog that you can fuse into Cerberus to give you a real advantage, if you're having trouble, in SMT1) original owner.

Indeed, I've never played the original NES Megami Tensei games, but I still think that Shin Megami Tensei qualifies as a reboot. The NES games were directly connected in many ways, but Shin Megami Tensei would completely ignore all of that with the exception of some references. Then again, I can easily see why one would argue that it isn't a reboot, considering even within the mainline SMT series they rarely ever directly follow-up from the world of the previous game. I don't think it's an argument that would ever reach a conclusion either way, since it comes down to semantics and personal definitions of what qualifies as a reboot.

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And I always figured SMT1 was an alternate telling of MT2 that, according to the many-worlds theory I put up on the Atlus USA boards, depends on where the nuke hits.

I don't think that's a theory so much as it is a fact of the franchise. Nocturne, Devil Summoner Raidou, Persona 2, and Shin Megami Tensei IV all directly mention the concept of there being multiple worlds. Devil Summoner Raidou specifically references the world of SMT2 being one of those alternate worlds, so I'd say there's enough evidence to confirm the many-worlds idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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Quick three bullets before I go to work:

• Metal Gear Solid came out eight years after Metal Gear 2, which had no real prospects or expectations of a sequel (after all, twenty-year-spoiler:
[Reveal] Spoiler:
You kill Big Boss... quite definitively, too, given that you light him on fire and watch him burn).
It completely reinvigorated something that could, at best, be described as "cult."

• Yeah, this really is a semantic argument. Is a reboot defined by function in the marketplace (that is, reinvigoration after hiatus), or how it's presented to the audience?

• I use "theory" in the scientific sense. That is, the best explanation for the data available. The definition you seem to run by is something I'd rather call a "hypothesis." But yeah, it's pretty well supported.

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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted

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I'm on the side that doesn't believe Silent Hill needs a reboot. Reboots infer changing things significantly enough so a new team can continue on a new mythos with the hope (not guarantee) that it'll be consistent.

I would be down for a proper remake of Silent Hill 1. Much in the vein of the Resident Evil Remake.

But what I'd really like is for a new game within the same universe we know and love that doesn't try to just repeat the SH2 formula and recycle ideas from the movies and previous games.

The Room, despite its flaws, was a step in the right direction, and an original direction! That's the sort of attitude the series needs. The concepts behind Silent Hill can be used to reinvent itself and do new things while still being consistent with its backstory.

Maybe Konami can even experiment with more Shattered Memories like conceptual spin-offs by approaching Indie devs, like the guys behind the upcoming 'Everyone's Gone to the Rapture.' Or collaborate with the Sony guys at SCEJ who've got small teams putting out titles like Rain.


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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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There have been enough games surrounding Silent Hill 1 now. The game, the sequel, the prequel, the re-imagining, the play novel, the cellphonegame (I think). It's been milked enough.

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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A reboot wouldn't necessarily have anything to do with the first game. Besides, we've kinda established the belief that Silent Hill as such a flexible domain could do almost anything it wanted to without needing to even slightly reference the past installments. Hell, it's so open that people were/are claiming Shattered Memories could exist as a direct sequel to the first game.

So I think the bottom line is, reboot or not, there needs to be a title that breaks itself totally from the mythology, the cult, certain gamey paradigms, and even the history and just begin with some utter independence. Of course there are things like the Otherworld, monsters and the town itself that would be expected, but even these are pretty open to reconstruction without becoming reboot or re-imagining materials.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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wonder's boy wrote:

So I think the bottom line is, reboot or not, there needs to be a title that breaks itself totally from the mythology, the cult, certain gamey paradigms, and even the history and just begin with some utter independence. Of course there are things like the Otherworld, monsters and the town itself that would be expected, but even these are pretty open to reconstruction without becoming reboot or re-imagining materials.


At that point it sounds like you would be writing an original video game and branding it as Silent Hill to draw in the market.


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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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No, the point he's making is that Silent Hill as a franchise would probably survive better as a thematic one rather than one based on in-game mythology, ala Twilight Zone.

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Woodside Apartments Janitor
 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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^ Precisely. And I didn't even think of using the Twilight Zone comparison, which is perfect.

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Gravedigger
 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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AuraTwilight wrote:
No, the point he's making is that Silent Hill as a franchise would probably survive better as a thematic one rather than one based on in-game mythology, ala Twilight Zone.


Well The Twilight Zone original tv show was an anthology of traditional folk stories, sometimes told as science fiction. That's why I suspect it would result in independent game stories being shoehorned into the Silent Hill town. Somewhat like the first movie took a abused girl gets revenge story and fit it into an adaptation.


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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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The thing about Silent Hill though, compared to something like the Twilight Zone, is that it's a game and not a show. We've seen in many game titles how well stories can be communicated and portrayed and, probably most importantly, interacted with.

It is the interactive element of video games that makes the possibilities unique and innovative in the gaming world. Gamers for generations have encouraged developers to push the limits with interactivity and the player's role in the story and the outcomes of a game.

This has been tried and tested at many points in the franchise's lineage, from being able to explore the large, open town in the first game to the gamer's influence in the actual world of Shattered Memories. Other things that stand out are the player's ability to switch worlds in Origins via mirrors, and The Room's first-person segments in the haunted apartment.

It'd be interesting to see what could be tried in another title, especially if it's a big departure from what we're used to in the series. A reboot could do this, or simply another title in the series could. If anything, Silent Hill has been very open to switching things up and I believe it's worked for the better compared to other series' risks, such as Resident Evil's progression into over the top action and violence. Some have liked it, and I have enjoyed RE5-6 very well, but I also feel like that series has lost its heart. At this point, a Resident Evil reboot seems more logical than a Silent Hill one, since the latter series is much more open-ended.

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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted

Missing since: 26 Apr 2009
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tbonesays wrote:
AuraTwilight wrote:
No, the point he's making is that Silent Hill as a franchise would probably survive better as a thematic one rather than one based on in-game mythology, ala Twilight Zone.


Well The Twilight Zone original tv show was an anthology of traditional folk stories, sometimes told as science fiction. That's why I suspect it would result in independent game stories being shoehorned into the Silent Hill town. Somewhat like the first movie took a abused girl gets revenge story and fit it into an adaptation.

The difference is that was an adaptation, a new game would obviously be a new story. If the story they used for the movie had been entirely original without calling the girl Alessa then it wouldn't have been all that out of place in the series. Even if I do think a lot of the elements of it were overdone and cliche. You can't really compare what an adaptation of a series into a new medium and a new entry within the original series/medium can do. I mean, what do you even mean about "independent game stories being shoehorned into the Silent Hill town"? Because ever since SH2 the idea has been to have some original and independent stories within the town and not to always deal with Alessa or the cult.

What I really don't get about this conversation, though, from either side, is that a lot of this is already happening. Look at some of the most recent games. Shattered Memories, Downpour, Book of Memories. How many of those rely on established mythology or storylines? They all brought something new to the table and with the exception of Shattered Memories (which itself is a shining example of unique-ness within the series in it's own ways) the only connections they had to past games were references. They also brought in new mysteries (Howard, for one example) to try and give the series back that special something it lost when we all got too familiar with it.

Of course there's no telling what will happen now, but that was the direction they were going in. It really confuses me when I see a fanbase tear the newer games to shreds and then ask the series to give them exactly what that newer game was trying to give them...


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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted

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NanayaShiki wrote:
Of course there's no telling what will happen now, but that was the direction they were going in. It really confuses me when I see a fanbase tear the newer games to shreds and then ask the series to give them exactly what that newer game was trying to give them...


Only Shattered Memories achieved this.

0rigins was pretty good imo. Except for the portions where it conflicted with canon, but overall was a great game to play, and exceptional for a handheld title!

Homecoming had its moments, as did Downpour. The larger problem I have is that it's the same re-thread of SH2's gimmick. Where the story is the same ol' repressed memory route. It's practically cliche now. To the point that Shattered Memories actually used that expectation to its advantage to truly surprise us.

SH1 didn't deal with repressed memories. SH2 was the first one that did. SH3 also somewhat did though in a different manner that gets resolved early on enough. SH4 didn't and actually entered new territory outside the formulaic confines though it also had its issues.

Since then 0rigins stayed pretty safe. Homecoming and Downpour mimicked SH2. Shattered Memories was its own thing. Book of Memories certainly did head in a new direction, but one that a large portion of people didn't want. You can pretty much group that one with the Arcade shooter.

So yes we want something new. But also not so far removed that it dissolves into something else entirely. Something more along the approach of SH4 rather than Book of Memories. And of course a new story or event that is removed from the SH2-esque blueprint.

This is why I use SH4 as a vehicle for determining where SH can go next. Certainly we should avoid the pitfalls that plagued SH4's game design. But in terms of getting a new setting, new possibilities as to the myths and mechanics that Silent Hill set off, and maybe just being someone caught in someone else's nightmare rather than your own character's would be a refreshing change.

Also we need to come to terms with the fact that Silent Hill is not a multi-million dollar seller and try to emphasize that the series can be a niche success by doing what it does best rather than chasing the open world action shooter genre. It is really more for an indie scene, and if Konami's smart they can still do a lot with less. In fact the asset to the early games was their clever use of making the most out of small locales and having you run around a lot. Certainly we don't have to repeat what those games did, but there are efficient ways to make the most out of a smaller scale game and smaller environments where artistic direction is pushed to the max. Anyway, the key to Silent Hill should be smarter resourceful development, bigger story focus. Not max budgets for maximum mainstream appeal to make up for the costs. Of course I want visuals to be as good as they can, and certainly working on a smaller scale can allow the engine and art direction to really shine without raising the cost.


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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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jdnation wrote:
This is why I use SH4 as a vehicle for determining where SH can go next. Certainly we should avoid the pitfalls that plagued SH4's game design. But in terms of getting a new setting, new possibilities as to the myths and mechanics that Silent Hill set off, and maybe just being someone caught in someone else's nightmare rather than your own character's would be a refreshing change.

Homecoming and Downpour both expanded upon the setting by placing you in different places within the region, similar to SH4. Additionally, Homecoming, Downpour, and Shattered Memories all have parts of the game where
[Reveal] Spoiler:
the protagonist is stuck within someone else's scenario.


jdnation wrote:
Also we need to come to terms with the fact that Silent Hill is not a multi-million dollar seller and try to emphasize that the series can be a niche success by doing what it does best rather than chasing the open world action shooter genre. It is really more for an indie scene, and if Konami's smart they can still do a lot with less. In fact the asset to the early games was their clever use of making the most out of small locales and having you run around a lot. Certainly we don't have to repeat what those games did, but there are efficient ways to make the most out of a smaller scale game and smaller environments where artistic direction is pushed to the max. Anyway, the key to Silent Hill should be smarter resourceful development, bigger story focus. Not max budgets for maximum mainstream appeal to make up for the costs. Of course I want visuals to be as good as they can, and certainly working on a smaller scale can allow the engine and art direction to really shine without raising the cost.

Silent Hill hasn't been attempting to chase the big dollar games like COD, though. Konami also (clearly) has not been providing them with some outlandish budgets to execute with. They have already been working within those boundaries, and it has not been working out well for them. I believe the series would certainly be more better served in the downloadable realm now as either an episodic approach or as a lower priced release online only. The people that care about the game would be there for its release and they could probably save a few dollars by not having to worry about the physical media aspect. That won't fix all of their problems, certainly, but it would probably help them at least some.


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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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Typographenia wrote:
I believe the series would certainly be more better served in the downloadable realm now as either an episodic approach or as a lower priced release online only. The people that care about the game would be there for its release and they could probably save a few dollars by not having to worry about the physical media aspect.
I don't think that's a good idea, and not only because of my own preference to always own physical game copies (particularly of my favorite series)! I think there are probably a lot of Silent Hill fans who focus a lot less on online usage and more on solo gaming, in *some* cases not even using PSN. For a fanbase such as this, switching to online purchase only is a bad idea. And many of us who do have PSN would just be turned off by being forced to such a version. Also, would it save the makers that much money to not make physical copies, but then to sell the online version for quite a lower price (and to fewer people)? :?
Sounds to me like a good way to work on killing the series off.

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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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I may agree with the downloadable idea in some ways, but consider this - many gamers don't have ideal internet connections for downloading these highly detailed titles. This alone turns me off to the idea since the internet where I live is sometimes about as good for watching Youtube as frying an egg upside down.

After the likes of Shattered Memories and Downpour, I think the series is headed in a wonderful direction. I just think the next title could use some more focus and attention to detail. I guess, refinement is where I'm going with this. Downpour felt off in some ways in that it wasn't quite as cohesive as Shattered Memories, the latter of which some may critique as being overly simplistic. Downpour offered a lot of variety with side quests and town exploration, which is great, but sometimes I felt like I was going everywhere and getting nowhere at the same time. And as a series that is well known for leaving open-ended questions, I think Downpour left too many open and dangling threads with character arcs like DJ Ricks' and Howard's. I simply didn't know where to start with them because they were there and then suddenly...not there. I feel like they could've been taken out of the game and the main narrative wouldn't have been lacking at all. Maybe some parts would've even made more sense.

Shattered Memories on the other hand utilized every character and location for its purposes. When characters died or ceased to reappear in the game, I knew what to make of it without being handed the answers. We followed many nameless, non-major characters through the use of interactive gaming techniques such as ghost images, voicemails, phones, and the links between Harry's exploration of the town and the counseling sessions. And these nameless characters felt much more full of purpose than anything I can imagine with DJ Ricks or Howard. The same goes with some of the side quests in Downpour.

Anyway, to bring this all back round, I see a lot of influence of SM on Downpour, like the developers said they intended to in interviews and such. This definitely made Downpour shine in the The Void chase sequences, side quests, and exploration. Maybe a reboot would enhance creative freedom, or maybe it wouldn't. I still don't think it would be all that bad of an idea to breathe new life into the series. Though a reboot isn't entirely necessary to do this, like everyone keeps saying, because if the new games have shown us anything, developers can do almost anything they want with a stand-alone entry to the series.

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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted

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Typographenia wrote:
Homecoming and Downpour both expanded upon the setting by placing you in different places within the region, similar to SH4. Additionally, Homecoming, Downpour, and Shattered Memories all have parts of the game where
[Reveal] Spoiler:
the protagonist is stuck within someone else's scenario.


Yes but I mean also expanding the mythos and mechanics. SH4 opened new possibilities with regards to the supernatural element. The first person view was also very well pulled off amongst other things. It really felt like a refreshing change while still retaining the exploration/puzzle solving formula. I do agree that Downpour did some very cool sidequest things.

Quote:
Silent Hill hasn't been attempting to chase the big dollar games like COD, though. Konami also (clearly) has not been providing them with some outlandish budgets to execute with. They have already been working within those boundaries, and it has not been working out well for them. I believe the series would certainly be more better served in the downloadable realm now as either an episodic approach or as a lower priced release online only. The people that care about the game would be there for its release and they could probably save a few dollars by not having to worry about the physical media aspect. That won't fix all of their problems, certainly, but it would probably help them at least some.


What I mean is that Konami, while of course resonably not expecting blockbuster COD money, has still been making decisions to expand the appeal of the game, for example by incorporating aspects from the films in the games, and of the early talk concerning improving combat mechanics. And maintaining popular monster designs and reusing Pyramid Head or a similar archetype because of the popularity.

I'm not keen on the downloadable model, but I do feel they should scale back a bit from the epic setpieces of Downpour to something more intimate and more indie in its thinking, but with the polish that puts Silent hill's presentation above the rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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phantomess wrote:
I don't think that's a good idea, and not only because of my own preference to always own physical game copies (particularly of my favorite series)! I think there are probably a lot of Silent Hill fans who focus a lot less on online usage and more on solo gaming, in *some* cases not even using PSN. For a fanbase such as this, switching to online purchase only is a bad idea. And many of us who do have PSN would just be turned off by being forced to such a version. Also, would it save the makers that much money to not make physical copies, but then to sell the online version for quite a lower price (and to fewer people)? :?
Sounds to me like a good way to work on killing the series off.

You are being far too narrow minded in what online distribution could potentially do for the series. There are already a massive number of people that use Xbox and Playstation online services every single day, and how much better would the exposure for a brand new Silent Hill game be if they were given the equivalent of a front page advertisement for its release on both services. Heck, I'll even throw Konami a bone and say they make release it on Steam as well. Now, also drop that $60 price tag down to $30 or $20 and suddenly the barrier for entry for many people has been lowered into a range that they feel more comfortable with taking a chance on.

Keeping Silent Hill aimed directly at the people they hope will keep buying it title after title isn't going to grow the series. Getting better media exposure won't be the end-all-cure-all the series needs, but it would certainly give them a better chance at boosting sales than hoping that Regular Joe Somebody walks into a Gamestopm, sees it on the big wall of new titles, and decides to spend their $60 on Silent Hill rather than the over-the-shoulder-third-person-shooter-of-the-month.

Also, I totally get the whole "I don't like doing online stuff with my console." That said, the way technology is heading, the future where more people are online than not is going to make that position irrelevant when publishers crunch the numbers on where the money is at. It's obviously not there just yet (otherwise the consoles would all be downloadable models only), but the Vita and Xbox One's original distribution model are definitely heralding it in.

My original point was intended more for the development model along the lines of a TellTale game. I feel the episodic approach or short story narrative would be a great way to inject new ideas into the series in small doses to help devs/konami test the waters, lower budgets, and perhaps avoid falling into story patterns. It's just a thought, but I always felt Silent Hill would do well in a short story format.


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 Post subject: Re: Castlevania producer thinks SH series should be rebooted
     
         
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I don't think the series needs a "reboot," I think it needs a quality infusion. The big problem with the more recent games has just been an overall lack of quality. I'd like to see the series given back to a Japanese developer and let them have another crack at it, because the work from all of the western studios so far have been disappointments.

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Tillerman wrote:
I don't think the series needs a "reboot," I think it needs a quality infusion. The big problem with the more recent games has just been an overall lack of quality. I'd like to see the series given back to a Japanese developer and let them have another crack at it, because the work from all of the western studios so far have been disappointments.


This is literally the exact same sentiment as "Here's some advice: Make a good game!" that someone made earlier.

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AuraTwilight wrote:
This is literally the exact same sentiment as "Here's some advice: Make a good game!" that someone made earlier.


And that person was correct, even if he was being too flippant about it. The main reason that Silent Hill has been floundering as a series is simply because the later SH entries are poorly made games, as simple as that. Shattered Memories had good ideas but horrible execution. What the series needs is a developer who not only has good ideas, but can execute those ideas well... that's something the series hasn't had in a long time. And it's not an easy thing to come by.

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